The over-use of charming

If you're in a group and you're not providing atleast 85% of what your class brings to the table, then you are a detriment to the 5 other people in that group. An Enchanter that doesn't charm especially in the early expansions is a waste of a group slot, i'd rather have a bard at that point. The only time an Enchanter should not have a charm pet in the group is when there are only uncharmable mobs in the zone. *Even then, there's usually atleast 1 NPC type you can charm". But i'm sure as hell not giving you a free ride because you only want to fulfill half of what your class is capable of.

*Chain breaks mezz*

Does not press taunt.

Sorry should have had a charmed pet.

Cleric doesn't want to rez because our dps is too low to keep up with the spawn they had to start nuking.

I agree with your group.. being lazy.

Does a bot bring 85% of what the class can do to a group?

I wouldn't kick an enchanter out of my group if they didn't want to charm a pet, but I certainly prefer they charm a pet. The DPS is just too good.

Enchanter doesn't charm (in modern times) only situations where the instability doesn't justify the extra dps...in other words, rare situations / many of the raids.

The reason the tlp crowd (im talking pre-agnarr) believes charm is 80% of the class is because they been playing an easy version of the game for the first couple of xpacs. The players don't need to CC anything and do way more damage and have more reliable utility than they used to.

When I came here I made a post about maybe addressing charm. I knew it was overpowered on p99 and classic even, but I thought that if we were playing this game like a modern MMO we should just fix the overlooked overpowered things like modern MMOs do.

But I've come to realize that people that have played on this server and previous tlps, generally like the easy mode for the first few xpacs and resent any effort to make the game more challenging. In fact, there's a great deal of resentment at any suggestion anything be changed -- which I find hilarious considering how changed everything is from classic.

I admit, it would be wrong just to change charm dps, and then not touch any other class. I think what would be good is if CC was required again, then we scale charm dps down. I think that's the appropriate order.

As far as non-charm is concerned. Maybe just buffing the mobs is in order? People don't like to be nerfed. But the game is a bit easy. So buff the mobs. Charm would still eventually have to be reworked though.

I'd day my box brings 100% to the table.

Never afks, never randomly goes to the store. Never gets coffee. Never has to cook dinner all while in game/grouped.

Knows how to utilize macros. Can communicate with my main toon faster than any real person possibly ever could.

Isn't afraid to charm. Filters spam so he doesn't miss communication.

You almost have me sold on just running my own 6 box group.

CC is required when ur not half-assing it in a group. Generally, as a pulling chanter, my pet is back in camp beating on the last mob while im training the group with another 3 to 5 mob pull aoe stun and aoe mez on inc, but yeah, you're right. CC isn't required when ur theorycrafting paltry exp gains on the wall in overthere, one-mob-pull after one-mob-pull.

The thing is, you're a bad player, so you can only see things through the lens of a bad player. In the current meta, amongst skilled players, charmpets aren't outdamaging real dps classes, and their CC is heavily required, because the pulls never stop, and there's always an add mezzed in camp while the puller is out looking for more.

Your previous call for nerf, a thread that was closed due to being absolutely shortsighted and idiotic, was rejected. Get over it already, charm is here to stay, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and the only ones getting outdamaged are AFK wizards and melee dps, because, well, melee dps sucks in classic.

I'm glad I'm not not a min/maxer after reading all these posts.

LOLWUT.

You've hit it on the head here. Its ironic how the average EQ player will say how hardcore or good they are compared to the average WoW or FFXIV player. But the most difficult thing they have to deal with is MAYBE... MAYBE a thought destroyer/corruptor spawning at the end of a fight. That's assuming they have the gall to go to PoHate.

But look at the outrage behind the Mitigation of the Mighty addition. They all thought they would have their 32,000hp loot pinata they could down in a few seconds that just so happened to be shaped like a dragon. Some rose to the challenge. Many complained.

Asking for more reasons to CC is a bit of a stretch. I'd like to see it, and I'd 100% agree its the way to go to solve charm. Somewhat. Maybe more like 95% agree. But to avoid debating over something that will never happen, lets just agree that changing how mob behavior is in numbers is just not going to happen. In addition I don't like how it would require a chanter in each group. Bards cap out at I believe 45 which prevents alot of applications without chanters.

No, what I think should be considered, not changed, but considered so we don't break anything too much. Is perhaps look at a -20% to -40% damage debuff on charmed mobs. This doesn't need to affect all charms. Once charm pets lose their appeal those higher level charms can lose (or gradually lose) the debuff component.

Another idea would be to adjust max duration. Bards can charm but are not sought after to charm. Perhaps a 2-3 minute limit on charm allows it to be used, as a CC tool like now (and I do like the idea of a charmed pet beating up its fellows). And then slap a 5 minute cooldown.

I like the first idea being applied to Necro/Druid and the second to Enchanter. I wouldn't be above removing the break early component to compensate and compromise.

But here's the raw truth:

Last night I was on a 33 Druid. I charmed a Light Blue animal. It was doing about 52 dmg a hit. A friend of mine was on their 50 Mage, with a focused earth elemental pet (the level 46 spell with the shovel from the Ro quest) doing 54 per hit.

Some of you are going to tell me this is fine. And then expect me to take you seriously. And I'm not even going to say you're stupid, but I will say you would be extremely dishonest and insulting most peoples' intelligence on this forum.

But look at the outrage behind the Mitigation of the Mighty addition. They all thought they would have their 32,000hp loot pinata they could down in a few seconds that just so happened to be shaped like a dragon. Some rose to the challenge. Many complained.

Asking for more reasons to CC is a bit of a stretch. I'd like to see it, and I'd 100% agree its the way to go to solve charm. Somewhat. Maybe more like 95% agree. But to avoid debating over something that will never happen, lets just agree that changing how mob behavior is in numbers is just

"No, what I think should be considered, not changed, but considered so we don't break anything too much. Is perhaps look at a -20% to -40% damage debuff on charmed mobs."

You don't want me to call your intelligence into play, but newscast, there ALREADY IS A 20% DEBUFF TO MOB DAMAGE AND GO WHEN CHARMED. IT'S ALREADY IN THE GAME AND IT SCALES TO 40% BY POP

This is exactly why I say clueless theorycrafting forumwarriors calling for nerf shouldn't be allowed to speak on such matters.....because you don't even know etc is actually going on.. you're theorycrafting off of invalid unsubstantiated data. You don't even know etc you're talking about. On p99 charm is even more OP, you just have alot more that don't know what the they're talking about or doing there, because there is no nerf at all to charm damage there.

Classic and Kunark probably could use a balance pass if the desire is for the game to provide challenge to the full player base.

The reality is that the "hardcores", myself included, just don't trust Daybreak to effectively balance this era and neither should you. They have proven themselves of incapable of doing so. The likelihood that they'll make it worse is much higher than them getting it right.

It is akin to demanding Daybreak come take a in your cheerios. WHY?

Dude they're asking for nerfs that are ALREADY IN THE GAME. The reality is, they will only be satisfied when the enchanter is relegated to being their buffbot

Lets be real. If you charm the correct mobs in any given raid, they will end up doing the majority of your raid's DPS. When you can do the equivalent of Wizard rain dps with no mana constraints, its pretty powerful. I can accept that this isn't strictly balanced, even getting gibbed once or twice a raid, but I don't trust DBG to not completely it up.

And the real fix for this issue is wait until November, or whenever Velious goes live. Enchanters lose significant effectiveness in top content (charming is a when you can't stun/mez) and never really get it back.

THIS "PROBLEM" FIXES ITSELF.

Might I make a request to the forum moderators?

Can you please start locking and deleting any threads related to Charm and Agnarr?

The reason I ask is because the threads provide very little in the form of constructivism. Typically, authors have an underlying agenda to re-spark the same discussion that was previously discussed in a thread that has since been locked. Moreover, the arguments are one-sided, flawed, and often just plain silly. (Just read this thread.)

P.S. - I didn't know these forums were for complaints? Nearly all the threads are about people complaining rather than legitimate discussions. In other words, this forum is starting to look more and more like p99's official forum, more specifically their 'rants n flames' sections. Please don't let that happen, as legitimate discussions are being overshadowed by all these complaint threads.

The only issue with this in regards to your druid charming and pet damage is; yes druids and necros can do a lot of damsge without the need of a charmed pet so with one their dps is fantastic. With enchants however you dont really have much dps aside from a charmed pet.

Sure they have nukes and dots but their dots are pretty crap and they are really spaced out (think before the lvl 47 dot its 26 or something) and their nukes really dont do that much and with the added stun they cause a lot of aggro.

Also if you super haste your pet (why would you want sub par dps ) you run the risk of absolutely destroying yourself if you get resists on stun/mez and your healer is too slow to react. This isnt much of an issue at low levels but being in the hole with a capturer that breaks and double backstabs you for near 400 a piece starts to melt your face.

Experienced this first hand yesterday when pet broke during a rock golem fight. The healer was focused on tank while pet resisted stun, mez and then mez again. In the span of about 7-8 seconds i went from 2k hp to splat

How dare you go providing practical examples of the risks associated with charming. These theoryquesters have already determined that ENCHANTER charm is overpowered IN THEORY, and that IN THEORY it has no practical risks, therefore they have a series of nerfs penciled in for fixing this "problem" (even though said nerf already exists in the game and is active on a sliding scale from Classic to PoP).

Never mind the fact that there are encounters on the life of this server specifically designed to utilize charm abilities in the raid scene, or the fact that charm is already nerfed: these theorycrafters have determined that charm is overpowered in theory, and thus must be nerfed into oblivion and uselessness. After all, shouldn't you be saving ur charm mana to buff their low damage ranger with swift like the wind?

The Test:

Lvl 45 necro vs Lvl 45 Chanter breaking into and clearing Priest/Crusader solo.

Guaranteed the necro will not only outdamage the chanter as he's clearing the balcony above the Crusader/Priest complex, He will also do so at considerably less risk.

Theorycrafters are quick to point out how charm is OP in theory, but they quickly dismiss the fact that it actually takes several group/raid members' contribution for a charmpet to succeed at outperforming a self-sufficient class such as the necro or mage.

Do necro/mage pets require shaman/mage malo to ensure that the pet doesn't turn and kill them any time there's more than 1 mob in camp, seeing as how charm is coded to break more often when it is opposing multiple mobs.

Do necro/mage pets require a healer healing them back up to full consistently, and often at the worst possible times because their pet turns on them and starts wailing on them? Not unless they're charming also, and in that case theyre easily outdamaging said chanter.

Thorondor thinks if he can come up with 1-2 examples where people out DPS a charm than it is absolutely balanced and anyone who disagrees noob -- or worse -- or a Democrat (the other "bad guys" in his head) or something. Its pretty pedestrian thinking. Even for a game forum.

Most people realize Enchanter DPS is over the top. And all discussions reflect that.