The Necro DoT Revamp

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Hadesborne, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. Machentoo Augur

    Thanks for posting this.

    Would have been nice to be told this two years ago, but then, given the time that has passed since the last dot revamps, maybe that would have created unrealistic expectations.

    Should we expect another three years is likely to pass before you get to this?
    Ckador likes this.
  2. Hadesborne Augur

    Again, I don't think it can be stated enough. Thank you Prathun for your communication on this subject. I can't speak for all of the necros but I do know that seeing your post fills me with hope for the class yet again. Thank you so very much.
    snailish likes this.
  3. Moege Augur

    The same could have being said for the TBL expansion and nothing was changed.

    It will not happen, necromancers still playing has to accept this. Read all the dev posts on how pressed they are for time/amount of workload that is being juggled. Then go back and reread the reply.

    Personally I dug my beloved necromancers grave, stripped the gear and salvaged as much as I could out of the 17 years of playing. These days only log in to do tradeskills as that is my max tradeskill character. When I get the courage to do tradeskills on another she will finally be left in peace.
  4. Fiyero Augur

    18 different spell sets? Holy crap that's insane. Talk about tedious and not fun to swap that much.
  5. Rasbis Lorekeeper

    I think more than dots have been revamped. When I stopped playing in 2004 my level 65 necro never grouped outside of raids. Came back in Feb this year and found my 52 Ranger was a stronger class now than the Necro(?)! In mid March ended up doing the "heroic" upgrade on both, no groans here everyone on their server is 110. I again found the Ranger was a much stronger class.

    In short, yea I tested the DoT issue last night and it is extremely bogus. But then again what has been done to the Necro class goes far beyond just this "dot" issue.
  6. snailish Augur

    I can take the scenic old backroads to my house. I can also take the highway. Highways are a compromise that server a purpose.

    I wonder if the solution to the necro issue is to "build a highway" rather than trying to redo everything that connects to everything and is so big that we can't seem to get our heads around it (or have the time to do it).

    Smarter brains can come up with something I am sure... but what I mean is:

    Why not tune a series of dots for live server necros that follow the revamped dot concept of high damage/high cost/one spell line in your memmed set and add in that they focus each other (so using them means really using them, no point pulling a mixed weave of super and other dots). That is to say super fire dot level 115 focuses super poison dot 112, super disease dot 114, etc.. --if one resists that is okay because they all focus each other (but not the old dots that are left alone) and you would learn that raid boss #476 isn't one to open with a fire super dot on.

    --so you are raiding you want to use your 1 dot from each line and burn a pile of mana but you don't need to spell swap to get your DPS.

    -in group play you might cast 1 of these dots on a regular mob because at least they hit like a truck and you have other tools (which may need attention too)

    -and solo you probably don't use them because the mana efficiency game probably means weaving the old style dots instead of having downtime from how these new dots would play.

    And then as time permits you just retro-add some more super dots that play in this technique to allow progression necros to raid again. --and they could cheat and the level 75 necro super dot is the level 95 SK one.

    You'd need what... 15-25 new spells in total to make this work?
  7. Xanathol Augur

    Exactly how many years should we expect SK & Necro DoT revamps to take? We're already quite a few in.
  8. Hadesborne Augur

    Thank you fellow necros for remaining constructive (somewhat) in this thread. I think the devs understand the importance of getting this right. I also think that it does help to show the devs that we are not going to become a bunch of crazy villagers, with pitchforks at the ready, if they make a change we don't enjoy. Open and level-headed communication needs to be employed here going forward if we are to get anything done. Thanks again.
  9. Veshzan New Member

    From a TLP perspective (only played Classic-Pop). Necro has a issue with only being able to land 2 spell schools for the first 3 expansions. A couple of fights will let u land more then magic&fire but poison&disease are really RNG/resistant. Landing spells on alot of bosses till luclin is a 1/3 potluck situation.

    Normally its between 6-10 spells on a target for max dps so to achieve the top tier dps u will need to mem new spells midfight.

    Going forward from pop i hear necro gets worse based on fight duration & ramp time.

    I would love to see a necro revamp but it sounds like it never will happen even if the community have volunteered to help.
  10. ~Mills~ Augur

    Mileage will vary but thats a pretty solid base currently to handle the various situations we see with live, undead, summoned, plant'able, multiple target, short max burn, no fire, etc. You won't use them all at once but honestly I could have 40 spell sets and probably fill them to cover all the bases I have seen the past 2-3 years.

    TBH the art to the class is extremely fun when lag and scripts don't kill it but..... debuff cap issues, infighting over debuff slots and limiting guilds to 2 of a class needs to be addressed and is what most want fixed. Not some drastic dps change, though TLP is probably different considering others got increases with melee revamps and dot revamps. A shift in reduced ramp time compared to others would be welcomed. On live getting necros down to 12 dots shouldn't take all that much time or resources nor require drastic changes or overhauls when they already have to create and tune the new dots with the level increase.

    TBL didn't have a level increase or new dots, outside of "special" ones he likes to stagger off. It should have happened during RoS but once again other stuff took priority. Basically until this is made a priority it won't happen as there isn't time for solo side projects with the time and resources they have.
  11. Bewts Augur

    To be fair, enough is enough. The project has been on delay for years from both the initial announcement of a DoT revamp and the conclusion of the last DoT revamp.

    While I understand scarcity of resources in managing projects, there has to be a line drawn somewhere before this becomes an empty promise that requires it to be reprioritized at the expense of other important projects.

    If there are tasks that can players can do to assist developers in this project, such as collating spell data or even running controlled parses in current state which can be used to apply assumptions; there’s an entire community that may be able to assist in getting some heavy lifting of the project underway. I mean there is a test server at our disposal in which incremental changes to a single spell line can be released for us to play test.

    In example, changing the basic fire line of dots to a tiered framework and releasing it on test can be the prototype for future development and you can use the player data collected to decide if the tiering allocation and parse data isn’t game breaking. One line a month or two months would get most of the revamp addressed within a year to year and a half. Hell, you can even put out the exact script to play test using third party software to make the data as controlled as possible. IE at level 60 cast spell X on a dummy where the script refreshes the DoT perfectly until the class is OOM.

    I’m sure I’m not the only one who would commit time on Test to run overnight parses for various levels / spells / focus setup using a script.
  12. Accipiter Augur

    So what are your choices? Maybe just move on with your life. ;)
  13. Old Man Lorekeeper

    It was Ngreth who got our shaman dots done, using the following spreadsheet which I don't understand and is a draft that probably has errors and doesn't match the final result.

    Maybe some enterprising Necro wants to take a stab at a Necro version of this, and bring it to Ngreth's attention:

    The discussion about this spreadsheet is here:
  14. Bewts Augur

    Thank you, looks like I’ve got a late night project now.
    Old Man likes this.
  15. DingoJack New Member

    Who's bright idea was it to let this Alan dude address the customers. Yeesh.
  16. Old Man Lorekeeper

    DBG has an issue tracker for problems reported in Everquest. Most issues in that tracker, which has many hundreds of issues in it, have just one vote, from the person who originally posted the issue.

    We got the Shaman Dot nerf up to over 30+ votes by very carefully cultivating many votes over time, mostly through these forums whenever the issue came up.

    Maybe the necro's could get a similar result with a similar approach. Here's the shaman dot tracker:

    At the bottom of the tracker, note that we got direct responses from Devs on detailed issues regarding spreadsheet errors in the comments section of the tracker page. Once a Dev engages an issue, there's a good chance you'll have action.
  17. Xanathol Augur

    Let's be real here - there was as much thought put into the existing dot revamps as most people put into picking out their socks for the day. The necro sk revamp hasn't happened bc they just don't care to. "Time to do it right" is a lie. Spending time prepping a spreadsheet is as useless as posting comments here for years, and we see where that has got us.
  18. Mesil New Member

    I am playing a necro since 2003. I do not want a Dot-Revamp.
    Only casting 4-5 dots on any raid mob is very boring. Getting a dot rotation running and maintaining through the events is already an art form. Please do not take away any skill in playing a necro.
    Also I am so used to my epic for many years, please do not take it away.
    Besides that, the only thing that will every come out of a dot-revamp is a totally broken class for many months, and the outcome will be massive nerfs.
    So, I think necros are rather fine, and I do not want to take a chance on them getting nerfed into the ground.
    Just raise the debuff-limit on raid mobs and be done.
  19. menown Augur

    And yet you ignore the fact that they can't do that. There will be no raising of the debuff limit for NPCs.
  20. Hadesborne Augur

    Who said anything about 4-5? I think there are quite a few more lines of dots for necros than that.

    Who said anything about removing the epic? This is about a DoT revamp.

    Total assumption.

    The class has already been nerfed into the ground by gameplay changes in other areas. That is precisely why a revamp is needed.

    Never going to happen.

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