The Holy Trinity

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by WhatUptime, Feb 19, 2023.

  1. Karrah New Member

    This guy knows. Our SK+Rogue power group crushes everything. I mean we also have a Shaman but she's mostly the mascot.
    Belexes and Flexin like this.
  2. Fian Augur

    Original trinity was tank, healer, and dps. For a while it was considered tank, healer, slower - but that faded after slow mitigation.
  3. Iven Antonius Bayle

    Now presenting to you...

    *drum roll*

    the one and only eternal holy trinity...

    *drum roll*

    the good, the bad, the ugly...

    *drum roll*

    Dorf, nome, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassling !
  4. Barraind Grumpy Old Bastage

    Thats the "Games dont make us know how our toolboxes work anymore" trinity.

    The 'Holy' trinity is Tank, Healer, Crowd Control. Your DnD wizardfolk werent spending a majority of their lives setting things on fire, they were color spray'ing, hold person'ing, hideous laughter'ing, grasping hand'ing, slowing, darkness'ing, and so on. The setting a room on fire or conjuring an urn that would blow up a mansion was a rare 'watch this' thing,
    code-zero likes this.
  5. uberkingkong Augur

    So today you have mercs. That means Tank Healer Healer
    Best 3 box?
    Bard, Bard, Bard.
    DPS, MEZ, pulling, CC, slows
    ALLIANCE attack aka 1.5+million damage
    Tank merc tanks
    Healer mercs heal

    Chain mez and then use the bard DoTs to slow down enemy attacks even more
    Charm? Oh yes baby bards can charm.

    Old content need charming, 3 bards can do it
    CC bards can do it
    DPS bards can do it
    Kiting bards can do it
    Why have any other class, you miss out on ALLIANCE, go 3 bards.

    haste? regen?

    90% of people use a bard in their 3 box, why waste 2 other classes, just go 3 bards.

    There is a lot of stuff bards can do, can't do it effectively with just 1 bard, more bards! What does the group need? MORE BARDS!

    Waiting on bard battle rez, 30th expansion I smell this happening. Sham,Dru can't battlerez like cleric.
    Need a raise the dead song, no %xp, just keep rezzing, so can do rez rush. Songs cost NO MANA, easily bring the DPS from death.
    Need more tanks? charm a mob, let them tank.

    The best class from death to dps BARDS. They come back boasting they ain't dead and it hurts a lot when 3 of them do it.

    Imagine, autoskill boastfull bellow.
    Alliance is triggered.
    So much dps

    Do not put bards in groups with others, put bards with bards!
    code-zero likes this.
  6. Iven Antonius Bayle

    Bard nerf inc...
  7. kizant Augur

    Just be smart and stick with the unholy trinity of sk, shaman, and necro.
    Ssdar likes this.
  8. Tucoh Augur

    For group game, EQ has went from a trinity

    tank / healer / CC

    to a duality of

    tank / ADPS

    Where the healer can be bolstered or replaced by a merc, but mercs can't really function well as a tank and provide zero ADPS.

    You can do great in a lot of situations with a pet class (especially since mages, necros and bst are really strong in addition to their pets in 2023), but there will be situations where you need to spend so much time carefully pulling or CCing that it doesn't work as well as a plate tank that can just bulldoze everything.

    In other words, it'd be hard to create a top-tier group without a plate tank + ADPS, but you could create a decent group without a player healer. This is made difficult because shaman (and to a lesser extent, druids) function as ADPS.
    code-zero likes this.
  9. TheRealMuramx Elder

    I roll with either War/SK (depends on the content) then Shm, Bard, Mage.
    When I really want to destroy something my friend plays 2 necros and I will play the Mage and either the shaman/bard (again depending on content) and we pretty much walk through the group missions like they are nothing.
  10. code-zero Augur

    Knowing what the top ADPS classes are, what do some of the other classes bring for ADPS? Like, wiz, mage, monk or rogue?
  11. Laronk Augur

    I’d argue that a paladin is a better healer than a Druid even if lots of people (and lots of paladins) don’t want a paladin healer over a Druid
    Ssdar and code-zero like this.
  12. Spacemonkey555 Augur

    Fake bard detected. Have you ever even grouped with one?

    On topic, when I first played pre pop, I learned in game what was desired from the then active group scene. Warrior, enchanter and cleric were the golden trio back then. Other healers couldn’t match cheal and you really didn’t want your only healer also trying to root cc/malo/slow when mob dps on the tank was highest. Chanter handled mez, tash, slow, and provided best haste and kei (back then kei was a larger portion of the total mana regen available).

    Bards, knights, shamans were popular, just not holy trinity. Back then as an enchanter I loved knight tanks for snap agro but everyone else tended to want a warrior for whatever reason.
    code-zero likes this.
  13. uberkingkong Augur

    If its an old fight where tank can tank easy but killer DoTs.
    Paladin splash is OP, no lie. Druids even with their aura those auras don't do squat on some DoTs but the paladin splash, boom gone. Doesn't hurt to have another tank in those a bit older yet serious group missions/mini raids with tons of adds and DoTs, very nasty DoTs like the ones that destroy anyone if you dont cure it quick.

    Honestly I'd go 3 bards, everyone has a bard in their group, bards make other people tougher.

    But bards can make bards tougher too. Alliance is no joke. 120 is about 3million easy damage quick damage.
    Their AAs as well really good for spike damage. Bards got some nice AAs, a lot of nice things. You don't need an SK/WAR/PAL, charm something thats how they did it back in the days. Mob can't kill you if they mezzed too. Bards do it too.

    TLP PL'ers in SolB, mezz, DoT, mezz, DoT, mezzz. 3 Bards easily do that in 120s content, just not crazy numbers.
    No need for a tank or healer if mob is gonna be mezzzed or using charmed mobs as fodder.
    WAR/SK/PAL/DRU/SHM/CLR, garbage, bards make them better but bards make bards too and thats better! Alliance is no joke damage. Go with 3 that can do an alliance and bards they are the ones that can get the farthest out of them all.
  14. Flexin Podcaster by day, Stabber by night

    SK + Rogue power group? Scare all the other classes away with that
  15. Tucoh Augur

    I've never played wiz, mnk or rog so I won't comment on them. But mages help each other out quite a bit, which is why I'm rolling with three of them.

    The mage's synergy (1: Increase Spell Damage by 90% (v302, Before Crit) for one fire DD) and pet count for Of Many are the primary benefit. Elemental Flames from Elemental Form (1: Increase Spell Damage by 45% to 100% (v124, Before DoT Crit, After Nuke Crit) for one DD spell) can help, but SPA 124 is so crowded it usually doesn't. Mages help non-mage pets through their two auras. They also confer defensive benefits to each other in the form of all the pet AE healing / Elemental Earth runes.

    The game has evolved to the point where every class has group buffs (primarily because of synergy spells), so everyone brings ADPS, it's just a question of how much and for what group.

    To the point of this thread, I'd prioritize decent ADPS for a trio before a player healer, such that if I had a group with a warrior/wizard and had to chose between a bard, a cleric or a druid for a third player, I'd chose the bard every time. This gets much harder if it's a shaman instead of a cleric, because shamans provide so much ADPS.
    Lluianae and code-zero like this.
  16. Lluianae Elder

    When your only class specific ADPS contribution is spell haste, which you can get from a Merc.

    Survivability out of the whazoo, but offense? Were it not for the cloak exp requirement, I'd swap my Cleric in groups for a Shaman 100%. I'll likely do this once I'm done with the last available evolving step. I still love raiding and doing stupid things as a Cleric, but in such an ADPS biased era, the advantages to swapping for content outside of raids are that apparent. Even with big pulls.
  17. Tucoh Augur

    Yeah this thread is depressing for a cleric because while the traditional CC classes are now top-tier ADPS and second-tier DPS classes, the traditional healing class (cleric) is still a healing class.

    Lotta ways to improve that and it wouldn't even be that hard. WoW solved this problem in 2002 by introducing shadow priests and EQ already has the vow line.
    code-zero likes this.
  18. minimind The Village Idiot

    The optimal group is a collection of tank, healer, DPS, and puller/crowd control that likes each other enough to seek each other out again and again.

    Lots of people try to min/max the absolute extreme of potential for each class when planning theoretical groups on the forums, but if everyone's not playing at 100% potential all the time (and they aren't), then it becomes less about maximum potential and more about how you react when the sh*t hits the fan or when someone's having a bad day.

    All my favorite groups (with strangers and with people who I've known for years) are when we've had to make do with what's on hand and still pull off some level of success. The sense of accomplishment just isn't there if you know you're running with the best group, best gear, max AAs, and complete an expansion in a week.
  19. Lluianae Elder

    I wouldn't have necessarily called WoW's situation solved from then on, but it gave options to the more purist healer where in EQ we're at a lack. Shadow was not a spec that was particularly easy to grok and its DoT play wasn't so appealing from a healer main perspective where DoT biased players would go Warlock. Back then I had my undead priest and dabbled.

    VoV's my baby and, bias aside, was a good example distilling feedback from the community to become something that a lot of Clerics enjoyed for years, even if it hasn't kept pace over the years. Similarly with the Ward of Retribution line, the idea stemming from Boanerges, it was great for a time, but fell by the wayside.

    I've discussed the topic a lot in the thread you've linked and elsewhere like in the Cleric Discord. You're very right - it wouldn't be that hard to improve the overall situation. It was done in the past multiple times and can be done again. It's all a question as to whether the current team wants to.
  20. MiataDriver Augur

    It has been a long time since I have memmed any spell in the mending line. Slow casting, mana inefficient. I stick with reckless, HoT, and group heals (including AA ones and BP click), plus rain heals on raids.