The Holy Trinity

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by WhatUptime, Feb 19, 2023.

  1. WhatUptime New Member

    Back in the day, the holly trinity, warrior, enchanter and cleric was the optimal base group.

    These days, it seems like the optimal group (not raiding) is shadowknight, bard, shaman, even more when you add mercs.

    Are there other groups that can also be just as efficient as this one? I assume that there must be something with a mage in it!
  2. code-zero Augur

    You need a real tank: Warrior, Shadowknight, or Paladin
    You need a real healer: Cleric, Shaman, Druid or even Paladin
    You need crowd control: Enchanter or Bard
    You may want transport: Druid, Wizard, maybe Magician

    Then DPS

    Even that isn't set in stone though, just a baseline.
  3. FranktheBank Augur

    Or a tank can be your cc

    2 mages and a shm or brd or enc can be pretty good.
  4. MischiefTLP Augur

    Nec, Bst, Rog and 3 mercs
  5. code-zero Augur

    If you have a tank that can train himself with a healer that can keep him alive then Bards and Enchanters can focus on ADPS/DPS.

    The funny thing about crowd control is that you don't really need it until you need it. I'm remembering the hilarious opening of TBL with wipes galore and much whining about "bad tuning". Don't tell me it didn't happen cuz I recall at the very least having to AE slow and occasionally toss in an AE mezz and tanks thinking that they were real hero's :p
  6. Belexes ForumQuester

    The holy trinity to me is an SK and Rogue. :)
  7. Iven Antonius Bayle

    I do disagree. The holy MMORPG trinity is tank, healer and DPS. Your's is just a (unholy) trinity but not the holy one. CC was always optional and every healer class had and has some by root.
  8. Andarriel Everquest player since 2000

    Yea Shm are OP other healing classes cant compare. Sure clerics are good healers but shm do so much more. Class balancing would be good who knows when that goes maybe few more yrs im sure they dont have time for it. Thats there excuse for everything now.
  9. Lubianx Augur

    Incorrect. He was talking about EQ in the past and now, not other MMORPGs. Early EQ holy Trinity was Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter (Tank, heal, CC). I remember wiping to Tipt multiple times (over 20) until we had an enchanter in the group.

    With current EQ yeah you can forgo CC mostly (some raids now require mezzing or charming mobs for bane). There are also missions where you dont need a lot of DPS. You can do Mean Streets with minimal DPS and more tanking and healing, especially when going for one of the achievements, same with Spirit Fades mission.
  10. Iven Antonius Bayle

    The healing power of the druid class got enhanced with newer expansions when being compared to the shaman. The standard healing spell of the druid is much more mana efficient. That is a good start because a class that does has the strongest slow spell should not be the second best healer. The druid was always underpowered and would fit much better into the role of the second best healer. As the druid cannot slow it should receive much stronger heals than the shaman instead of a pure mana efficiency bonus. A 22k heal (see below) versus an unslowed or even a slowed lvl 115-125 mob is laughable weak.

    Korah's Mending (118 SHM)
    Clotavida (117 DRU)

    Shaman spells (115-120)
    Druid spells (115-120)
    Vumad and code-zero like this.
  11. Iven Antonius Bayle

    GoD (Tipt) was not early EQ. The game was already 5 years old there. Early EQ is just until TSoV I would say. Enchanters were very helpfull in dense dungeon zones with many roamers but not a general must have. The holy trinity is something that has nothing to do with EQ in particular; it is a concept for a basic game mechanic and existed since D&D and other pen and paper RPGs. What you mean is just a trinity but enchanters were mostly the fourth wheel of a quartet (tank, healer, DPS, CC). DPS wise the combination of warrior, cleric and enchanter was crap and could just ran out of mana because of the lack in DPS when several mobs were mezzed at the same time.
  12. tsiawdroi TittyGOAT

    Do shamans even mem korahs mending? Do druids even mem clotavida? Why would you compare these two?

    The better argument for druids would be to allow them to cast older versions of the same spell like shamans can do with the reckless line.
    Ssdar and Waring_McMarrin like this.
  13. Lluianae Elder

    Tipt is a strange example to bring up for CC. Early Tipt was less on Enchanter for CC as opposed to charming a glorious mountain pooka for the ridiculous DPS. Jhiru really hurt and you wanted to burn through him as soon as possible. Trash hurt, but wasn't the bottleneck stopping people from succeeding for the longest time.

    As a Cleric (who at the time could be 1 rounded by trash), I ended up pulling for the most part in Tipt and Vxed. Stonemites you couldn't root/snare, most things could be stunned, and you had Pacification. I'd charm duo there for a long time until the nerf hit. Then it was sad times.

    Now had the Sewers been brought up, especially that ghastly underwater one with endless tureptas (because no one likes underwater push), CC was much more useful there. But so again was DPS. Just pulling sensibly and killing efficiently.

    Sadly these days, Clerics are really inefficient for groups even when you're pulling multiple at a time. Our lack of a/DPS is not made up with the extra survival we bring when kills/time efficiency is what truly matters in the end and you can go so much further with a Shaman. Druids still face mana efficiency issues which prevents them from sustaining their solid damage effectively long term.

    It does make me sad in a way. Even being the die-hard battle cleric that I am, it amounts to so little that my focus on any other class will be bringing far more. With Llu maxed on all AAs, all she's working on is the NoS cloak. When that's done? I'll level and work on more alts so she can sit out and sleep. She's an old high elf after all. The best fit would be a Shaman.
  14. Zunnoab Augur

    I'd say more the "pure" class design is awful and outdated. It's ludicrous to have thousands of AAs that make worthless things still worthless. It goes far beyond balance. The game could use the introduction of detrimental/beneficial ability redirection, things like the cleric AE stun shouldn't have a massive gem lockout penalty (if it still does) and absurd recast times, etc.

    I don't know if it's feasible to reinvent things on such a scale, but it's a different game now.
  15. Lluianae Elder

    The Silent AE stun line still retains its 5s "fizzle timer" where everything is greyed out for that duration, along with its 2 minute recast and 20 range PBAE radius. Our Quake line's regular, but on a 25s recast with its 35 range PBAE radius.
  16. Laeadern Elder

    My holy trinity is Paladin, Bard and Shammy.
    code-zero likes this.
  17. Rijacki Just a rare RPer on FV and Oakwynd

    The "holy trinity" when I was originally playing was most definitely "tank, healer, crowd control" (and still is for many situations). That doesn't mean those are the ONLY ones you have in a group, just as the core for the group. It means those are the necessary with any DPS to fill in. A group with a warrior, cleric, and enchanter could bring along a one or more high DPS class pretty much interchangeably.

    There are more DPS classes than those who fill the holy trinity roles and in many cases you would need more than one class to cover the abilities of one of those three if you didn't have them or take on slightly less challenging content or move more slowly and cautiously. An enchanter could be replaced with a bard and shaman (mezzing and debuffs) but you would lose some of the versatility from enchanter CC. A paladin and druid could replace a cleric but, again, not quite fully. And so on. (und so weiter *grin*)
    Yinla and Wyre Wintermute like this.
  18. Iven Antonius Bayle

  19. mele mayhem New Member

    i dont think there is a set three, but is lot of good combos like a good 3 would be monk or bard with mage or nec, and shaman or bst
  20. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    For grouping, healer & tank are the must haves the others can be various classes.

    Chanter role these days can be replaced by a puller or rooter, these include shaman, rangers, monks, bards, SK, Necro, Rogue, Wizzy, cleric, pally, beastlords and druids, mages can also be used to off tank mobs with the pet as CC or their necessity pet to blur.

    Making a group these days you really only need 2 a tank and a healer, all healers are able to off root mobs, but you may want one of the other classes to do this so the healer can consentrate on heals.