The Elephant in the room

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by demi, Jul 30, 2021.

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  1. eqMath Journeyman

    Cheating in EQ results in a lot of weird mental gymnastics.

    There are different types of cheating in EQ but since they get bleeped out, I'll just lump them all together (yes, they aren't all equal).

    Some subset of the cheating community believes and understands that it is cheating. Another part has convinced themselves that it isn't cheating. The 2nd group is the more insidious one. Players who don't believe it's cheating often do the following things to try to justify it (subconsciously or not):
    1. Associate as much as possible with another group that isn't cheating (playing it across as a boxing community, only calling it boxing)
    2. Say they are just adding features
    3. Compare it to other bad things people do to make it sound less bad
    4. Say that everyone does bad things sometimes
    5. Say that they don't use part x, y, and z that are bad and that makes it OK
    6. Comparing it to abusing bugs/exploit that occur within the game
    7. Say that many features added to EQ were because of their cheating software
    8. Say that DBG hasn't stated it's not allowed, and that makes it OK
    9. Power of the size of their group - saying that DBG can't possibly suspend/ban all the cheaters, and that it would be financially devastating (protection for the cheaters is guaranteed because there are "so many." "If Daybreak bans all of us EQ will die.")
    10. Say that DBG's financial benefit justifies their cheating (playing more accounts than a normal player could reasonably manage)
    11. Say that they don't hurt anyone, and that makes it OK
    12. Compare it to other 3rd party software used by EQ players that provides any benefit, as though they are the same
    Sorry but these are all misjudgments.

    The dangerous part is that when nothing is done for long enough, more people buy into it. If you are a new player and you are befriended / welcomed by someone who happens to be in the cheating community, that doesn't think it's cheating, there's a good chance you're going to believe them, install it, join the community, and think everything is fine (until you get suspended, and it isn't fine). Or, they just google "everquest boxing" and are immediately led to cheating programs that state they are OK to use. This person rightfully feels lied to, but incorrectly directs their ire at the EQ community / CS / DBG because they aren't going to turn on their friends/community. They've had the Kool-Aid.

    The problem with how EQ has been handling cheating is that nothing is really being said except all these people who come out of the woodworks claiming it isn't cheating, and any other reasons from the above list. Sure, there may be a subset of EQ players who will say something about how blatantly clear it's cheating in this thread, but by that point it's too late.

    Saying nothing about why and how it's cheating, and that it's bad/damaging for the game, means the only opinions being thrown around here are people who are cheating saying it isn't and recruiting people to their community (safety in numbers). Not to mention doing big ban/suspension waves like this one on a regular basis, because people clearly do need a reminder of what cheating is. Years ago, you couldn't even talk about cheating on the forums, and I think people who used that software knew exactly what they were doing. These days, the cheating community reminds me a lot of the cult / conspiracy groups / manipulation that have become the social problem of the past 10+ years, and has a lot far reaching damage than just EQ.

    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing." Think carefully about this. It applies to EQ and DBG as well (hope they are listening).
    Stymie, nitrocutter, Jumbur and 8 others like this.
  2. Axel Furry Hats OP

    There seems to be a lot of discussion on what is cheating, and what isn't, so I think before any further discussion happens, we need to talk about this.

    What is this "software":
    From the looks of this thread, it seems the common consensus is that this particular software injects code into the game, therefore cheating, right? But what if you just use this software to inject your UI to give yourself another hotbar and nothing else? Or maybe change a UI element or two? Would that be considered cheating? GINA does the same thing, but slower, since it has to read the log file and it isn't directly in the game. Injecting code to give yourself better graphics (EQ could use some) or make the game more playable isn't a bad thing and I wish that the game had an "addon" feature similar to WoW where you can do these sorts of things without risking getting in trouble. There are tons of things that could be useful that not everyone would want through injected code. Like adding another bar above the target that shows JUST your dots/debuffs on the mob, that would be so much better than searching through 96 icons looking for the ones with the yellow square that looks alarmingly close to the square around malo/tash. I'm unsure if there's software that does that, but it would be cool and every DoT class would appreciate that (if they wouldn't they're lying). That's just an example of how injected code could improve the game, not really give you a distinct advantage, and give players more options in how they choose to play the game.

    But that's not what this discussion is about, it's more about AFK play:
    Ok, so can I melody in a lowbie zone and use /advl features to farm me some stuff? That's using only in game mechanics and I don't need to be at the keyboard for it. Can I set up an autoclicker to spam my multibind and just AFK heal? I'm not injecting anything into the game. Can I set up a python script to read my screen and use keypress commands to kill monsters while I'm AFK? Clearly key broadcasting is allowed, which is just using a 3rd party program to tell your other EQ windows what to press. You could automate a full team without injecting a single thing into EQ. What about 3 boxing using mercenaries to kill? And then have a GINA script & python script set up to respond to tells & say? If I receive a tell, copy something to my keyboard, click the GM command that is in EQ, check the logs to see if the GM is online and in my zone, then press my "reply" key or my "enter" key and paste then enter. It's clearly OK for me to copy stuff to my keyboard, it's clearly OK to read logs, and it's clearly OK to use 3rd party programs to send keys to the game. Not saying that anyone does this or cares to do this, but these are examples of using the tools that are clearly OK to use to automate gameplay.

    So what about these other "bad" programs?
    So before we get into this, there are some pieces of software that show where things are on the map, this is a debated topic and most people tend to think these are bad. But anyone that has used a website that shows spell data is guilty of using or promoting the use of programs like this. To read spell data, you need to set up a piece of software that reads what the server is sending you, and what you are sending to the server. So if reading what you are sending/receiving from the server is ok, then some of these other pieces of software should be ok. I think we can all agree that knowing spell data is useful and not in any way bad for the game, and if you do, then stop using websites to look up spells and spell data, because you are supporting the people that make this apparently bad software.

    This topic has received 4 pages of responses in like, a day but the topic is just accusatory or "your cheating bad, my use of software good" instead of going over details, trying to make things better, etc.

    To answer OP's questions:
    1. I've played less. Friends that I know have played less. Mostly this is due to lack of content in this game, but since the suspensions, yeah, I've played less.
    2. This isn't the end of EQ. Live EQ maybe. Boxers bring in far more money than non-boxers to DPG. Not trying to defend anyone here, but this is just a fact. Buy 6 expansions, use 6x more kronos than non-boxers, yeah, that's a lot more income.
    3. They made the wrong choice. Why do I say that? Because TLP has caused more damage to live servers than boxers have, and as far as I know, the problematic people on TLPs are still around. Plus TLP changes should not affect live servers, and my class has been nerfed on a few occasions because of bad apples on TLP (Vainglorious Shout changes, charm changes). Make a separate TLP branch in the code, it's not that hard.

    Hopefully this post inspires more intellectual discussion rather than "lol new account" and other stupid posts like that.
    Alena and code-zero like this.
  3. Szilent Augur

    It is… bold to respond with this litany of bad-faith arguments supporting cheating directly following the post that enumerates and calls out the commonality of bad-faith arguments supporting cheating.
    Stymie, Velisaris_MS, Sancus and 4 others like this.
  4. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    This kind of false-equivalence nonsense is like lighting a fire under your own buttocks then asking why its suddenly getting hot....

    Equating Gina with a warp-hacking pos program that lets you load in automation script modules is about as disingenuous as it gets.
  5. Bigstomp Augur

    Spell data is in a .txt file inside your EQ folder on your hard drive.
  6. Numiko Augur

    If you need extra software to play EQ, you really suck as a gamer.

    That is all.
  7. Beimeith Lord of the Game


    GINA does NOT inject into EQ.

    No, you cannot, and they have expressly stated as such.

    No, you cannot.

    No, you cannot.

    On non-truebox servers, yes. On truebox servers, no.

    Key broadcasting is NOT automation. It requires you to physically press the keys on the main system. If it doesn't, than it is automation and not allowed.

    If you are physically at the keyboard, yes, that is ok. If you are NOT at the keyboard, then no, it is not ok.

    Nope. The python script is injecting into EQ.

    If you, yourself, are doing that, that is ok. If a script is doing that for you, it is not ok.


    If they are not scripted, yes. If they are scripted, no.

    No, they are not allowed to automate gameplay.

    Wrong. Spell data comes from reading the spells_us.txt file stored in your EQ directory. It does not hook into EQ in any way whatsoever.

    It's not. A few specific exceptions to this have been acknowledged which they choose, (but can change their mind about at any time), to look the other way on: item collectors, the AA data collector, and Magelo.

    Nope. Specific exceptions are specific exceptions. Just because it may be legal to kill in self-defense doesn't mean you can kill anyone at any time for any reason.

    We can agree spell data is useful, but you are wrong about how it is obtained.

    Hopefully this clears up any misunderstandings you have!
    Tucoh, Skuz, Jumbur and 6 others like this.
  8. eqMath Journeyman

    The end actually isn't near if EQ actually just went full-ham and banned every M Q user today. If anything, DBG only suspending people is an act of mercy considering the days/years people have poured into their accounts and characters. Despite what you may believe. The sad part is that people who are cheating may not hear it, instead they stamp their feet and insist they are required to be kept around because money.

    Sorry but that's not a good argument. Cheating damages the game. Even if you think you don't hurt anyone, you do. Even if you play 1 character and are always at the keyboard, if you pay for M Q and support their community, you support a system that invites innocent players in, tricks them, gets them dependent on their software, and then banned. You support a system that developers waste time trying to investigate and break, instead of making positive changes for everyone playing EQ. You support a system that profits off of EQ while damaging it. You support a system that creates an enormous amount of petitions for CS to deal with, observe, and try to police, so much so that it may even have caused other things real players actually would like help with to be denied. You have unfair advantages that normal players don't have access to, that you gloss over until your brain convinces you it's fair, because the M Q community repeats it to you ad-nauseum.

    If you haven't noticed before, EQ players hate the automated bazaar traders who auto under cut them and auto price things with no effort. No human can compete with that. It erodes the ability for regular players to buy Krono and pay for their account. Automated toons camp the same area for days/weeks and normal players can no longer go there. Automation enables more money to enter EQ's economy than normal players can create. TLP players who aren't cheating can't compete with an M Q turnin script that doesn't even require you to be at the computer watching, after they camp some quest turn-in NPC for hours/days. It's an actual plague on the game. None of those "add ons" sound fair.

    I am a boxer and I resent the fact that people in the M Q community like to cozy up to us to try to "hide." There's playing more than 1 account at a time, and then there's using software to automate your character faster than any human could, often without knowing how to play the class. You just pay for / download someone else's script (btw, these people are very interested in continuing to make money by leeching off of EQ - good incentive to lie about it being allowed).

    The sad part is, some of the people who use M Q won't play without it. They think the game isn't worth playing otherwise. It's literally poison for the community and the integrity of the game. If you can't play EQ without M Q, can you really play EQ? Are you really an EQ player?

    TLPs actually have increased revenue and players, despite all the rules about old games and how they slowly die (see some interview with Holly on YouTube in the past few years). Sure, TLPs have invited a lot of drama and toxicity (on their servers), but they're here to stay. DBG clearly has made the call to take the bad and the good, and does still try to get rid of some of the bad. I think DBG should fight M Q and toxicity, and bugs, and all of those things are important. It would be really cool though if people using M Q would take a good, hard look in the mirror and think about whether or not they're really contributing to the game, or damaging it, instead of pointing and saying "but TLPs."
    Stymie, Skuz, Jumbur and 3 others like this.
  9. Tucoh Augur

    Have they banned anyone for just using m q or is it pretty much all just afk bots?
  10. Windance Augur

    What server is that?
  11. Windance Augur

    I am on bertox and I can say with 100% certainty that most of the people who were hit that I spoke with are not AFK automaters.

    They are people who got tired of soloing or LFG and want to just be able to log in and do something productive.

    These are people who are also the most active members of guild and generally make room for others when they are LFG, etc.

    These are people who generally paid for 3-6 accounts each. Of which I know of 5x who decided that they were done with EQ and between them dropped nearly 30 paid accounts. That's not krono farming accounts, that's 30x $10/m x 12m + 30x 40/year ~ $5k/year from just my guild.

    Bertox also has a guild which raids during Australian time. Their raid population has struggled for years and now they are unable to raid so figure that entire guild will probably end up quitting.

    I fully expect to see at least 1-2 of the raiding guilds on bertox poof.

    I don't expect those who are haters to give a , but be careful what you wish for. The difference in the server before and after is real.

    The people who are exploiting aren't the ones who got hurt. They will go on because they know the game. The real losers are the people who just want to run a group rather than be LFG
    Alena, Lorai, Chaffe and 1 other person like this.
  12. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    So these people are semi-AFK automaters or "I'll check my computer every 15 minutes for tells (so I don't get a suspension or ban)" automaters?
    Stymie, Skuz and Andarriel like this.
  13. Windance Augur

    No these are the people who are at the computer playing the game controlling a group. They chat with others in guild and are active.

    I know there are a lot of haters on the forums and to be honest told myself not to post because those who are set in their beliefs are not likely to have any empathy and just see it as us vs the dirty cheaters .... ban em all! rah rah rah.
    nitrocutter, Alena, Lorai and 2 others like this.
  14. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    So there is no automation involved (not even 1 box)?

    This is not a "I'm watching Netflix while my automated group is killing" situation?
    Skuz likes this.
  15. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    The irony is palpable.
    Stymie, Skuz, Sancus and 2 others like this.
  16. eqMath Journeyman

    You can do this without M Q as well, many players do this on a daily basis. Just because someone is nice and cheating doesn't mean they aren't running the risk of being suspended/banned for breaking the rules.
    Stymie, Raccoo, Skuz and 1 other person like this.
  17. Whulfgar Augur

    They were cheating.. What makes you think they were paying for the account ?

    Buying a krono from players in game via plat is what I bet they did. Not actually exchanging money to the actual company in order to stay subbed.
    Stymie likes this.
  18. Kaenneth [You require Gold access to view this title]

    They don't ban detected cheaters immediately because that would allow the cheat makers to test and refine their cheats to evade the system one account at a time
  19. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Buh bye.
  20. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    So many of these cheaters outing themselves this week, its glorious!
    Stymie, Skuz and Nennius like this.
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