The Case for FV-style TLP.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Quill, Jan 12, 2019 at 4:02 PM.

  1. Quill Augur

    Now... to be upfront here... I was always one of *those guys* that loathed FV. I didn't see the point. You put in that work, and then just sell stuff? It didn't compute.

    But when I was dreaming up my mythical TLP, FV-style droppable loot came into the discussion. So, I said what the heck and started playing FV just for the lolz. And the more I play it, the more I like the idea.

    See... in my mind, TLP has a big problem. That problem is that if a server gets past 6 months, new people dry up to a trickle. I'm sure there are some out there, but by and large once you get past that point it becomes an equation of... do I start here, or wait for the next? And starting a TLP part-way in is so painful, most people just simply mark time until March, so that they come in when groups are abundant and levelling is easy.

    So I got going with a two-box war/shaman on FV for fun. The biggest eye-opener was the reminder of how just a little raid gear, assuming they're key items for a class, can really change the equation and make the game far more playable(45% haste, a weapon or two, fero/cleave, etc). It makes playing the lower levels faaar more fun and enjoyable.

    The one thing that FV does not have though, is AoC's. I'd go gank AoW, Vindi, and Tormax in Velious right now just for fun, if I could. But 99% chance they're down.

    The marriage of a TLP and FV would be the best of both worlds.

    If they do do that, the opening schedule is waaaay too slow. An FV-style TLP gets more usable as it opens, not less... so the sooner the unlocks come down and the less time you spend in an expansion(particularly given there are 25 of them)… the better it becomes for casual play. It can't be instant, and it can't take a year to get out of Classic, so that's why I advocate for original Progression Rules. A Month minimum, and the expansion must be cleared at least once.

    Basically… this TLP at end of life would provide a place where people can level up fast, gear up fast, and if needbe get pushed to Live. Per that motif... the following changes:

    * No MOTM. The events are the same level as Live. If they go up in a cloud of smoke to box armies, I do not care. I'll take that if it means that they go up in smoke to casuals.
    * Vastly increased XP far beyond that found on any other server. Sauce for the goose.
    * Vastly decreased Grind Rates. Rares come to mind. Give people a reason to get out in the world and work Hunter achieves.

    Basically, you flip the script where the opening of the server goes from being The Most Important Thing Ever... to being largely a footnote in the life of a FV TLP. The server itself isn't meant to be a be-all-end-all proof of Elite Ego(there are plenty of those servers), and instead be more of a place where casual people(particularly ones that comes back), can simply go to level and have fun. And a place where they aren't going to want to just take off if another server comes around.
  2. Jontrann Lorekeeper

    3 month unlock timer is perfectly fine for an FV TLP style server, stop trying to rush content.

    Again, if you are getting tired of classic - pop content maybe you shouldn't be rerolling on every single new tlp server?
  3. Xeris Augur

    There are a lot of new people coming into Agnarr lately, actually.
    Xhartor likes this.
  4. Quill Augur

    At its core, an FV TLP gets better the deeper you go. The slower you go, the worse it is.

    If you aren't going to speed it up, there is zero reason to go FV rules, other than as a gimmick. None.

    An FV-rules server will live or die by how fast stuff starts funneling downwards... and that takes a far shortened timeline in order for content to be outlevelled. If they aren't even in PoP in a year, you can put a fork in it for whatever comes next.

    People should be Destroying Velious, Luclin, *and* PoP among other things in a year. Or whats the point? Where's the beef?
  5. Trevalon Augur

    1 month is just too short for many expansions. I was there for Sleeper/Combine, sure it was fun for a bit, but it got to the point where by the time you killed the bosses 1-2 times the next expansion was opening up and you were leaving it all behind and almost everyone I knew quit because it just seemed so pointless, what was the point of getting gear when in literally a month you getting new gear again, just pointless.

    Some expansions (like Luclin) if your not in the bleeding edge guild you may not even get to kill emperor much less VT before PoP is opening.

    3 months really seems to be the sweet spot, the 2 months for non level increase expansions seems good too. Rush servers were a bad idea when they were here before and would be a bad idea now.

    and FV rules dont magically make a rush server any better - it just means more useless gear is out there because you've rushed 3 expansions ahead already. Whats the point of farming Kael when in just a few months your going into GoD and Goat armor is available - what a futile exercise that is.
    snailish and Jontrann like this.
  6. Quill Augur

    I was on original progression… and what killed the Progression Servers was no Raid Instancing at the time. So if you weren't the top or top two guild on Server, everything was locked down and dead until PoP. RoI stuck it out, but by and large the general populations died before Velious.

    I've been upfront that if they go to a month, that Daily Raid Instances should be a thing. No lockout over 18 hours. I also don't care that not everyone may get a trophy here. If you don't kill Emp in-era, have fun killing Emp out of era. Most guilds defeated raids out of era anyways, it wasn't some Mark of Cain.

    You're looking for nice sanitized lock-step progression, which tends to first set a set of guilds, and then lose them by attrition over expansions. I'm looking for more of a Demolition Derby where people just kill **** for the fun of it. If you aren't sweating the xpac opening and living or dying based on whether or not your guild completes the content in-era, you can have a lot more fun. And you'll also expand your potential player base beyond those that live or die based on whether their guild completes an xpac in-era and are ready to reroll another server come March.

    Rush servers were a bad idea when everything wasn't instanced.


    The FV rules shine when the initial rush is over.

    Then don't? Perfectly fine. Raid as little or as much as you want. Personally... i'd like to see guilds going into some of these events without necessarily having BiS and see what happens. I actually have a feeling there is a good chance you could stall the server progress at some point. Nothing is guaranteed about all the unlocks being done before 30 days is up.

    The point here is to introduce some chaos into the Orderly TLP mix, and see what happens. And if you aren't willing to experiment, you're basically going to wear out traditional TLP.

    Phinny was great, Agnarr was ok, Coirnav was tired, now what? You'll just keep driving it into the ground if you can't spice it up.
  7. Xeris Augur

    Agnarr is great, actually.
    Xhartor, Elskidor and snailish like this.
  8. snailish Augur

    In a different thread this was being referred to as a "racing" server --which is what Combine/Sleeper was. That would be a server where the top guild(s) dictate the pace of the unlocks by beating the targets and triggering the opening of the next expac turnaround. You can't do AoC or /pick on a racing server... it trivializes the race. Maybe you can allow AoC to come in for the non-current targets (aka an expac behind).

    "Rush" server... shrugs. You're just asking for faster XP (and sometimes more loot etc.). AoC servers with pick are already loot pinatas to even the least-motivated raiding guilds. I think lots agree that faster XP would be nice whether the server was racing, 3 month unlock, 6 month unlock and so on.

    FV rules isn't just free trade loot. FV rules have changed over time and different people want different parts of it when you actually dig into that. However, that's a tiny # (it seems) compared to those that might want the free trade loot. So just call it that. Free trade loot is a really easy way to allow 2 identical progression servers to be launched at the same time, with that one rule being the difference.

    The OP "doesn't care if it goes up in smoke to box armies". A lot of people do, as shown by the constant anti-boxing threads. I think a lot of that is misplaced. I think a lot of that is reduced if some of the loot pre-Luclin is just made nodrop. Truebox is another rule that would allow 2 servers to be launched at the same time with otherwise identical rules (it has been awhile since a non-truebox server was started).

    Something goofy like making the level cap in classic level 30 might do a whole lot more in one simple swoop. Would keep the playerbase closer in level for the 3 months. Make a lot of stuff much harder without MoTM or other tweaks. If you do that for a few of the early expacs... could be fun even if you "normalize" by DoN era or such.
  9. Quill Augur

    Of course you can. And technically... all TLP's are 'racing' servers in the modern era. Hence why OGC prides itself on killing SOD in 5 days. All the 'elite' guilds 'race' to see who gets there 'first'.. no matter the Progression timeline. The only thing Combine-rules does is get that 'race' out of the way quicker. After all, nobody really cares about the outcome of that race, and these days its all an informal 'I beat that first' neeneer neener.

    Absolutely.

    Make it bloody rain. Have a flash flood of loot. Drown people in it. The point of FV-rules is that it makes it easier to both gear up replacements and incentivize people to start later in the process. That thrives when you have a ton of loot to keep prices down.


    No. Faster XP on a 6 month server means people get to the end faster and then are bored stiff with nothing to do but the same boring events every week. It goes both ways, if you're going to churn through the XP, then you have to churn through the content in order to keep things coming.



    I don't care what you call it, but FV loot on a regular TLP server would be pure gimmick that wouldn't really change much. Perhaps that's why you want the slow open to obscurity for the server?

    Correct. So long as it goes up in smoke to casuals. People are already rolling with box armies on Coirnav, they aren't going away unless they crackdown on the practice, and so far it doesn't appear they are. But you shouldn't come up with a rule-set based on what they will or won't do.

    And? So what. People get mad at everything these days. You should't try to adjust your server based on them. If DBG wants them gone, they have means of doing that called Banning. If they don't, either deal with it or quit.


    How is that Truebox working for you on Coirnav? Oh wait...

    Basically.. what i'm looking for is the following. 6 months from now... someone gets on the forums and says 'I'm thinking of returning, what server should I play'. The response would be...

    Well.. there are a couple choices.

    a) Play Live where its pointless to play except at max level. Buy the Expansion, a sub, and push your way there and then join the grind.

    b) Play TLP, but you'll be hopelessly behind with no real hope of catch up. Even if you do, its pointless to play except at max level. Push your way there and join the grind. Although, if you really want, don't bother with playing for now and wait for March when another TLP will probably open.

    c) Play FV TLP. You get Triple XP all the time, can gear for lower levels easily via the Bazaar or play alt games at your leisure, and can destroy old raid content via AoC's. It doesn't really matter if you make it to the endgame, so play at your own pace!

    C is what I want. C is what they're missing. The opening is just a means to get there without having to take 5+ years to do bloody it.
  10. Jontrann Lorekeeper

    Pretty sure if we could downvote you're thread we would. No one that wants a FV TLP server wants daily AoC resets, hell that's the dumbest idea i have ever heard.
  11. Quill Augur

    Why would you care? How does this affect you?

    Unless of course the only reason you want a FV TLP is as a krono farm. The entire purpose of daily AoC's, is to keep up with the server opening and flood the market to ensure that people who farm don't take advantage of those that don't.

    Can't charge 15 krono for that Cloak of Flames? Aww... sorry! (not really).
  12. Kywen Lorekeeper

    There is no FV TLP, so from where are you getting this information? Are you a seer? Your server does not sound very fun. I think slower is the way to go.
  13. Quill Augur


    From playing FV. It certainly doesn't sound fun, if you've never played FV. Slow is always the bastion of the hardcore. If that's you, there are plenty of other slow servers to choose from, no need to play this one.

    If it takes 5 years to open the server, its a dead server in under one, because it'll simply be a RMT'rs dream server.

    You want a flood of gear to support a flood of casuals, along with constantly adding new gear to keep things fresh. If everything is a snail's pace along with throttling supply, its simply a sellers market and if you reach a tipping point where people feel they have to simply buy their way in, they'll play something else. The only way you prevent that is by keeping prices low, and that takes a very healthy supply of the items in question.
  14. Rexxy New Member

    C is basically agnarr now...
    snailish likes this.
  15. snailish Augur

    -I think some people like the idea of free trade loot on a progression server. Some also hate this idea.
    -I think more people like the idea of faster XP, from the start, in all eras.
    -I think there is interest in a trilogy start so 1-60 grinds out a bit different.
    -I think only a few want racing unlocks. I also think some that think they want this will quit before Luclin.
    -some people want pvp... I don't think it works in EQ now, but would concede the point if proven wrong.
    -I think only a few want faster than 3 month timeframes. There are very logical threads pointing out how 3 months may not work for some of the post SoD content in that it isn't enough time for a serious raiding guild to do it well.
    -I think casual players have limited playtime and don't need daily raid unlocks.
    -I think casual raiders (misnomer, really "family guild raiders" is probably more accurate) only benefit from daily lockouts if they have some hardcore raiders in their guild that raid more than them so basically if some of the guild is "serious raiding" they could use the shorter lockouts to fill out the ranks for the half time players.. (i.e., I raid with Jenny on Tuesday and Morty on Thursday)
    -I think AoC and picks already make gearing up so easy... and this is one factor in the game being too easy. Easy isn't bad... but hard to serve "more challenging content" if we make it even easier to overpower it. Raining quality gear sounds like WoW quest system where 5 quests later you have replaced half your worn gear and only gained half a level. Total lack of accomplishment... accomplishment is a factor in people still playing EQ 20 years in. 51/50 (a gimmick I think has its place) shows there is only a lukewarm interest in this approach in EQ (arguably a stronger interest in this approach for Quarm events).
    -A casual player would love faster XP on slow unlocks if they are the type that likes the first few expacs. Ragefire/Lockjaw are not ideal casual rulesets... yet have kept a strong population for a long time. A 6 month unlock server with fast XP isn't aimed at a hardcore playerbase... especially if it is Phinny rules in all other respects, truebox or not.*

    *not my preferred next server, but free trade loot, 6 month unlock, not true box, AoC, Pick, high XP would absolutely destroy a 4 week or less racing version of the same in total population to start, in 6 months and in a year when the racing is likely done or down to the skeleton of the 1 guild doing it. However, I think there is minimal population overlap between those two example rulesets... they could literally open them both on the same day.
  16. Febb Augur

    I played on The Combine from start until it combined into live. The main reason the server died was because expansions were opening up too quickly and we couldn't do hardly anything in era due to the content was dead. So we had to do older content but the new expansion group content had better gear. So we essentially raided old content just for fun because there weren't many upgrades due to the fact we were already decked out in the current expansion group gear.
    practicalnurse and snailish like this.
  17. Trevalon Augur

    All of this sounds terrible. Please do not do any of this Daybreak, you will destroy any semblance of a new server. You have some decent ideas Quill, but this isn't one of them.
    Xhartor likes this.
  18. Quill Augur

    If you don't experiment, you die. There was a time when people swore up and down Raid Instancing the early game would kill it. Some of those people were Devs. Now its commonly accepted.


    What they need to get to is a server type where you can login and level and gear well.

    As an example, right now i'm messing around in Valdeholm on FV destroying the ice lake. These are all even con or better, and if it wasn't for the raid gear... i'd be getting owned, or it would be obscenely slow, and need a 'group' to effectively kill it. But two-box with mercs and i'm just melting it down. That's the thing a lot of people don't understand. The game is designed to be undergeared for your level, and then raid loot equalizes that. But if all raid loot is locked behind No Trade... you're forever **** until you max level. In a game with 25 expansions, that's just ridiculous.

    And its this issue, above all else, that causes people to not join TLP post-release. If they're forever **** until they hit max level and basically need a PL, why bother? They need to be able to effectively kill, preferably independently, of-the-level mobs and do it well. That takes FV loot, particularly the deeper you go where its not just 50 levels you need, but 70, 80, 90, or beyond.

    I did the Binden gate neck on Saturday at like 73. I remember 73, and I didn't tear the elementals apart in group like I did on Saturday. Its amazing what a little raid loot of-the-level can do.

    So you don't like Combine ok... what do you suggest? It can't take 5 years to get deep, or by the time you do... nobody will care. I don't think it can be instant, as in... open everything... as it'll be viewed as an Event Gimmick Server.

    One option is to simply bring the AoC's to the Live Servers. Then I can give TLP two middle fingers, and simply play on FV. Its really the only thing I want. The ability to simply hop in old raid content and wreck it for the lolz.
  19. Elskidor Augur

    The idea of an FV TLP has been beat into their heads long enough that they almost gotta go that way if they care to listen. FV is the most popular live server too. It's a no-brainer to launch a similar style TLP, but I doubt it'll have shorter than 3 month unlocks. They also seem to love slow xp so might get stuck with a horrible leveling server again. I could totally dig a faster paced high XP FV clone that catches up in 3 years or even less but not seeing it happen like that.
    Crayon123 and Quill like this.
  20. Crayon123 Augur

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