Test Update 8/5/2014 - Pet Changes Round Two

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Aristo, Aug 5, 2014.

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  1. Siddar Augur

    You people dont listen.
  2. Daegun Augur




    I'm assuming you're referring a non-response to your last post:

    This is from the pet mitigation parses from months ago. These parses were obtained at a time when shield stance was not available in game, but ... it was relevant at the time.

    ---------------------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    To put the above into perspective, this is what a warrior can maintain 100% of the time (ie no discs) compared to what a BL can maintain 100% of the time (vies on short recast) without any external buffs other than cleric cert and Shaman unity:

    Round by Rounds:

    BL Warder:
    [IMG]

    Group geared warrior:

    [IMG]

    What about that same group geared warrior while under Last Stand followed by NTTB?
    [IMG]

    What about the BL warder using fortify companion but WITHOUT reflective runes or short cast vies? (ie afk tanking)
    [IMG]

    -----------------------------
    -------------------------------------

    That was the data from "at the time" comparing a group focus BL warder to a maxed out group geared warrior. It is not relevant to what is currently proposed on test for the following reasons:
    -Shield proficiency was not in the game
    -Pets are not currently mitigating to these insane levels like they used to.

    Why are these posted links pertinent? Everyone keeps bashing baseline parses as useless and is claiming that no efforts were made to compare "real life" dynamics. These were actually taken into consideration and tested as best as reasonably possible while still maintaining a degree of control (same mobs - goal for extended parsing).

    These mobs were not slowed or debuffed in any ways, nor were they stunned by any external sources.
  3. Daegun Augur

    In the above post please take a close look at how bad the problem was ... and look at these graphs respectively and closely:

    Unslowed mob wailing on a BL pet. BL pet is receiving block buffs from his owner along with other his own reflective proc buffs and nothing else. Paired with his "before state" insane levels of mitigation, look at the spike potential and average dps:
    [IMG]

    Unslowed mob wailing on a group geared warrior toting his shield - using Last stand followed by NTTB:
    [IMG]

    At the time the BL pet was not only taking almost 1000 less dps, he was also taking smaller and less frequent spikes. The only thing the BL was doing was letting his pet autoattack and casting the block buffs whenever they refreshed.

    Please tell me you can identify the problem here.

    Thankfully, pets will not be tanking this well in the future.
  4. Siddar Augur

    I don't care what a warrior can maintain 100% of the time I care what a warrior can keep up in a short fight compared to what a pet can keep up in the same time frame. Trash mobs are trivial rare named mobs are would you believe it actually rare. Player tank or pet should not be using abilities that have more then a few seconds cooldown on trash. Cooldowns should be saved named mobs. If you choose to use cooldowns on trash mobs you have willing giving up on saving them for named mobs. Passive tanking named mobs is not something that should happen for ether pets are player tanks.

    I want more complex data that I consider actually useful for determining game balance not theoretical tunnel visioned passive mitigation parses.

    But that's just what I want your free to parse in anyway you like but don't expect everyone else to conform to your methods because what you consider correct is not the only way things can done.
  5. amping New Member

    That is the only way to see true passive mitigation regardless of all the smoke and mirrors people throw at it.

    And that is why this change happened not because of activated mitigation.

    And why wouldn't you want to use passive mitigation to get your pets correct ?

    Because after the passive mitigation is right then you still get the benefits of your activated mitigation on top of it ?
  6. Daegun Augur

    And here is 5.5 hours of the old mage earth pet entirely unbuffed:

    [IMG]

    Total hits: 26,407
    Total rounds over 30k damage in 5.5 hours: 8
    Max round in 5.5 hours: 38388
    DI 20 hits: 0
    DI 19 hits: 0
    DI 18 hits: 0

    Raid geared warrior buffed with certitude and shield (30 minutes)
    [IMG]

    Total rounds over 30k damage in 30 minutes: 6
    Max round in 30 minutes: 43k

    Group geared SK self buffed and with certitude/shield (30 minutes):
    [IMG]

    Total rounds over 30k damage in 30 minutes: 50
    Max round in 30 minutes: 53k

    Please bear in mind that these are round by round charts - they factor in superior avoidance of player tanks as well as just the DI spread and passive mitigation.
    amping likes this.
  7. Siddar Augur

    You do realize pets on live have been changed sense that parse? So your posting obsolete data. Can you give a explanation for why you think what you just posted is relevant and not just clutter?
  8. Denial_Sinfae Augur


  9. amping New Member

    And here is 5.5 hours of the old mage earth pet entirely unbuffed:
    Total hits: 26,407
    Total rounds over 30k damage in 5.5 hours: 8
    Max round in 5.5 hours: 38388
    DI 20 hits: 0
    DI 19 hits: 0
    DI 18 hits: 0
    Raid geared warrior buffed with certitude and shield (30 minutes)
    Total rounds over 30k damage in 30 minutes: 6
    Max round in 30 minutes: 43k
    Group geared SK self buffed and with certitude/shield (30 minutes):
    Total rounds over 30k damage in 30 minutes: 50
    Max round in 30 minutes: 53k




    And that is why its relavent everything that is bolded.
  10. Daegun Augur

    It is relevant so we don't forget the WHY behind these changes happening. Months ago pets were laughably out of whack. Pet owners are claiming the sky is falling when really they're just getting forced to slum it with the rest of us PCs with regards to feeling the pressure of damage spikes. The parses coming out of test really aren't bad - sorry, the numbers prove it.

    Pets hopefully will never again see what we saw in late RoF and early cotf. It was broken.

    Parses coming from test are in line with what aristo stated was the goal.

    Pet heals were intentionally upgraded to prepare for these changes.

    On a case by case basis I would expect individual pets to be further tweaked potentially along with other activatable (spells etc) pet defensive modifying abilities.
  11. Siddar Augur

    It would be helpfull to state when you use pet data that is obsolete and is being used for historical purposes that infact what your doing. because it can be very misleeding if people think the data you posted represents pets in there current state on live servers.

    You clearly haven't parsed a necro pet on test if you think its anywhere close to the stated goals.
  12. Daegun Augur

    If you actually bothered to read my posts you will clearly see where I stated these parses were from the pre-nerf era.

    And yes I have actually parsed all the Mage pets, necro pets, and the BL warder to boot.

    Necro warrior pet is actually right at the target mitigation goal quoted by aristo.
  13. feiddan Augur

    Swarm pets could use some more love.

    I'm not sure if the answer is more HP or more AC (perhaps both), but even after these upgrades they're doing far less DPS than they used to. It was kind of a cheesey way to solo named on my necro--an endless wall of swarm pets that could never be stopped--but these were crucial to DPS. What before was an essential part of necromancer DPS is now nerfed.

    If swarm pets are meant as DPS, they need more survivability and some kind of hate override or such if it's needed to keep them balanced. If swarm pets are more for tanking/utility, then I'll adjust and necro DPS will drop to even lower levels in groups. My preference is to restore their survivability to previous levels but reduce their hate generation significantly.
    amping likes this.
  14. Nylrem Augur

    Pets were too powerful vs single mobs. That is a fact. My raid focus earth pet used to easily be able to out tank a raid geared knight vs 1 single target raid mob. (IE Bees in Bixie 2 raid or offtanked guy in Neriak 1 raid, etc). A single druid, /yawn healing, could keep my raid buffed earth pet up indefinitely tanking 1 bee/Neriak mob.

    This same druid 'max' healing, using everything they could and the sk offtanking the same bee/neriak boss, the sk would eventually die to a damage spike (I'm guessing usually when ran out of discs?)

    So, as a magician, I have to agree that pets did become too powerful.

    However, they have always had issues with multiple mobs. Their mitigation does not scale with multiple mobs. A magician cannot pull 20+ LB mobs and dps them down while the pet tanks them all, not even using max tricks etc. Real tanks can.

    Pets do not have medium/long recast, 'super' mitigation abilities, that stack with other classes' abilities, like tanks receive, which allow them to do amazing things, on occasion.

    Tanks get enough activated abilities, they can tank a 3 pull of yellow con mobs, tanking them all, definitely once every 10 min, and most likely once every 5 minutes.

    With the current tweaks to pets, no pet will be able to do that, or even close to similar,

    Just now, I could only keep EM20 earth pet alive vs 3 DB trash mobs in Argin. all defensive buffs I could give it (Fortify, Aegis, etc), cleric merc with 111AA, healing acumen 6/8, on reactive, me spamming promised amelioration rk3 / Renewal of Hererra rk3 on pet, for 93seconds. That's the best I could do, tanking multiple trash (a very common scenario for us, given our extremely limited solo CC abilities).

    All other raid tanks maxing out their tanking could do WAY better vs same scenario.

    Passive mitigation, sterile parses, etc have their uses. However, real scenarios, and how stuff really performs when it's doing it's 'normal' job, with 'normal' buffs and debuffs, etc, is what matters most.
    Xeladom, Raneern and feiddan like this.
  15. Mintalie Augur

    The problem at the moment is that my EM20 pet is dying to two dark blue trash mobs with two J5 healer mercs and slow. Maybe if you're only using one merc healer, sure, but no way in hell should a my pet be dying to two dark blues with two healers going. Sorry, it's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise (and I don't mean to imply that you are suggesting otherwise, by the way :p ).
  16. Randragon Augur

    The real problem is Sony wants to correct an out of whack game mechanic that has been crazy for years. But with no real upswing in the grouping game they are tired of the mudflation of how the pets can do things a real live person with a toon can't.

    They created this mess and short of screwing the pet community, they have no other recourse in their eyes.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  17. Zellic Elder

    Seems pets could use some upgrades in multi-tanking then. Through something other than raw mitigation. Passive avoidance, something active on short reuse, etc would seem to make sense.
  18. sojero One hit wonder



    What would you want? The thing that allows tanks now to tank many is AE agro. They still have the same limitation of discs etc. SK/PAL can do it because of self heals. War can do it because of better mitigation and because of incoming heals.

    Mage pet tank has its 20% vie which is as good as sk/pal disc, and their parent class has heals and block spells. BST is in same boat, or very close to it. Nec is the only one that doesn't currently have everything that the others have.

    I have no issues with pets getting an activated AE agro, once every 5ish minutes or so, same as PAL.
    Xeladom likes this.
  19. Sancus Augur

    AE aggro is only an issue if you are able to actually tank that number of mobs. Right now in a scenario with one healer merc, 2 current content mobs require basically every cooldown.

    The problem with the vie (beyond most of T2 being root-immune) is it has a 10K damage cap. If you would like to read my post here, you can see why the vast majority of our abilities degrade significantly when fighting 2+ mobs. I won't deny that even post patch we are fairly strong with one mob. The problem is our activated defenses aren't keeping up with multiple mob encounters. The vie you mentioned gets stripped in ~2 seconds (if the pet's able to cast it).

    So instead of getting AE aggro, I'd rather have one or two significant abilities (hopefully not too powerful but readily available) that don't degrade on multiple mobs. Quite frankly we weren't particularly powerful in that area before the change, and now it's painful to try.
  20. sojero One hit wonder


    SK and Pal have many abilities like that, our were made to be able to handle a certain amount of mobs, but it fades after X inc damage as well (albeit much more, but it is a disc not a proc). I wouldn't mind seeing the self proc 20% vie dmg limit moved up. other than that, mages and bst already have all the rest of the tools that a tank have, you just have to learn when to use them and when to save them. When tanking multiples (other than visage + epic) sk and pal dont go full offensive, they go defensive and rely on the the group to burn down the mobs. There should be no difference for mages/bst/nec in that situation.

    Nec do need some love after this change, I have been trying to get a new parse after the current change on test for my nec and while I am seeing better di values than the one I posted, my nec pet has actually not lived as well, so I haven't been able to get more than a 9 min parse (only tried 3 times, been busy). I started another before I came to work with 3 mercs 2 of eff, one on bal to see how long it could go and get a better view of how the di spread will be for it.
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