Test Update 8/5/2014 - Pet Changes Round Two

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Aristo, Aug 5, 2014.

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  1. Piemastaj Augur

    My Water pet literally got rounded on Roon last night while parsing. Took me 4 separate parses to accumulate around 650 seconds of tanking data vs Roon.

    Water is not an effective tank for nameds, for trash it should be respectable (like any melee DPS is). Not the go to or preferred pet, but if your tank dies for some odd reason the pet should be able to hold its ground for a time on trash. Again, like any normal melee DPS class could do.
    Voragath likes this.
  2. Girlfriend Lorekeeper

    I'll say one last thing. The quantitative data and graphs and hair-pulling, really did muddy the water. And the devs were influenced, as they have mathematical models which represent their idea of balance in the EQ universe.

    With his permission, I'm going to quote my spouse Baramos ( who is ill or he'd be doing it) below, because I think that sans all the number crunching (and Bara is an engineer btw, and loves number crunching), that his *words* regarding the current situation are a better measure.

    If the Mage pet infringed on Tank necessity, it would be one thing. But they don't. Despite anomalies, anyone who suggested 'let's use a Mage pet' instead would be laughed off the field.

    This class takes a back seat to the pure tanks and to the pure casters.

    The ONE... count it.. ONE thing a Mage can do the best is to solo. And you know what? It takes a LONG LONG time for us to perform these solo miracles. But we don't care, because we love our pet, and we love the independence, and we love the game.

    Regardless of how a single pet performs against mobs re: DI or re: a mathematical flaw found years after the fact, it would do NOTHING to the integrity of the game to leave it the same as it's been for years.

    Until such day as a pet is routinely taking the place of TANKS our pet should be pronounced "good" and let's get on with the game as we know it.

    This whole thing saddens me, not just in the fact that my beloved class may be nerfed, but also that others in my community have gone to such lengths and such ranting to cause a change which, in the final analysis, will not bolster their own class, but will surely nerf mine and completely change my playstyle, if these changes come to pass.

    I really do think this is the kernel of the 'issue.' Look, Everquest has been around a long time, and the Mage class in its current incarnation is BRILLIANT and not reproduced in any other game. There is NOTHING WRONG with a solo class, and we should revel in it, and our uniqueness, and not squabble over it.

    The idea that Mages are some powerhouse is a wrong-headed conclusion of number crunching. We can do things that are pretty cool but it takes A LONG LONG time to do it. Our spell casting times are long. We have to wait for long cooldowns for the next omg. It literally took me HOURS to run Russell Coopers missions in DH.

    We're a snail, strong and with a hard shell, but we move slowly along and are satisfied with it. One hour. Five hours. I don't care. I plod along.

    Devs, I hope you take this into consideration when you do your final de tutti final adjustments, because I truly believe that letting the gas out of this class in the way I've seen described will cause more problems than it will solve.

    As for me, it will completely wreck my play. I'm only one customer of course. But I'm still asking you to please consider my thoughts. I don't think I'm the only one.
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  3. Piemastaj Augur

    Unsure why you chose to bring my name up, but even with those 'blocks' pets are still having much higher average hits and really high incoming DPs compared to tanks of the same caliber.

    Fairly sure you didn't read his post considering Necro pets proc prism skin also meaning it would not change the data at all.
  4. Miklo Elder

    Try playing a necromancer on a raid and actually try doing your job, then tell me if the underlined is possible. Let me save you the time, its not possible.
  5. amping New Member

    You can always keep an earth pet pocketed so why does the dps pet dieing to a named he shouldn't be tanking have any relevence ?

    I understand it needs to live on raids to ae rampage but there are other means of achieving that then bumping up its mitigation ie buffs that fade when the pet hits the top of the hatelist.
  6. Denial_Sinfae Augur

    I listed 3 abilities in that reference.

    Necros have one of them, when I specifically stated using all 3 together is pretty effective.

    Going to save you the time of needing to type that post, and state what I thought was implied well enough, that I was referencing magicians during that post.
  7. Piemastaj Augur

    Allow me to pull your words out of context also... You should have read the quoted portion of my post and then read my post for it to make more sense.

    My reference was to Brogett complaining about Water pet tanking too well because it was tanking trash mobs. Brogett drew the comparison to melee DPS and how a Water pet is similar to them so it should be 'bad' at tanking. The Roon tanking scenario was showing that it is bad at tanking stuff it should not be tanking like named, but trash mobs imho should be fine to a point like the scenario I made in my post.

    I can pull anyone's words out of context and they probably look dumb, but when you put them together with the entire conversation things start to make sense.
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  8. amping New Member

    Well regardless what it was out of context think of it like this why should a water pet even be able to tank anything above a light blue con ?

    Player dps have a hard time tanking blues without high levels of support . Minus monks and thats their pulling archetype getting into the mix. Even raid geared fully with full dex augs they are still almost paper tanks.

    The water pet should be no different .

    If you are worried about raid survival do like i said get an hp buff that wears off when the pet hits the top of the aggro list its a win win for two situations
    #1 you can just audio trigger the buff wearing off and know to cast summon companion on it to fade its hate
    #2 your pets survival on raids would be better then it was from ae rampage before the nerf which is still sad because it was better then any melee dps then.
  9. Miklo Elder

    That spell for necros can only be casted on the necros pet, nobody elses. When playing a necromancer in any setting, solo,group, or raid, the necro isnt effective at anything ( including keeping the pet alive) by using that spell. That spell is only good for rare situations while solo and has to be used in conjunction with other spells/abilities. It isnt a sustainable form of playing solo, group, or raid. Most raiding necro's wont waste their time on their pets except for hitting replenish. The pet is almost useless in that setting.
  10. Piemastaj Augur

    Raid geared players do not need a full support line-up to tank blue mobs. And people say Mages are lying lol.

    Your bias and I understand that, but please do not go on spreading lies.

    Regardless, does not exist. The ENTIRE point of my comment was based on someone else's comment. Context provides meaningful insight to a conversation.

    Like I said, melee DPS can stand up for a time on trash mobs. Assuming Aristo is going to change all 4 pet templates to get them exactly how melee counterparts are is absurd. I proved (with words, but the point remains) that Water is a terrible choice for named tanking much like I would imagine any melee DPS would be as well. Air is better, but still worse then Earth at tanking a named. The tanking levels increase from water and decrease from earth which is how its supposed to be.
  11. amping New Member

    And I will take some of that back maybe a raid focus water pet should be able to handle 1 - 2 blues with support. That means more then you and a merc .

    And I suggested where pets should be at the maximum I really don't think knights would agree though because that would still put them better then they are at mitigating.

    I am really not bias at all I think pets should under perform player tanks and when comparing a player dps tank ability to a pet dps tank ability they should also under perform that player dps tank wise.

    That is game balance making people more inclined to invite a traditional group or do raids in traditional ways .
  12. Piemastaj Augur

    So a water pet being able to hold up for a period on trash mobs is going to make it so traditional groups can't exist?

    If that is the case pet tanking isn't the only issue, we should be looking at non-tanks, tanking now also.

    So, the player DPS does more DPS and it has to tank better then the pet? Seems a little bit on the short-handed side, again against pets.

    Since when is 2 healers not support? I can probably guarantee an equally geared melee DPS with 2 healers will tank named mobs in harder content let alone trash. I really do not know what your comparing, but it would appear you do not give enough credit to melee DPS.
  13. amping New Member

    I have seen many group tanks magically vanish over the last 3 years pie I am sorry you haven't noticed it but I have. And half of them restarted as mages because they were easier to progress with and do what they needed to do. I have met at least 15 this year alone.

    So what does that tell you ?
  14. Piemastaj Augur

    It tells me there are issues with tanks, and how they gear/progress. Which nerfing pets does nothing to solve those issues.

    It says nothing about the Magician class. Nor does it say anything about pets, Magicians have always been able to solo content.

    What did the other half do? 50% is hardly a number to use as any type of evidence to back up your claim that pets need to tank barely above mercs and clearly below players.

    It also tells me, if tanks are quitting by the boat load, then having pets be significantly weaker means that more of the player base can not do things to progress. In no way, shape or form does tanks quitting directly relate to pets being OP. Thinking so is misguided.
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  15. Kunon Augur

    Necro Pet's Summary:

    Level 100 Necro Rogue Pet. EM20. Max AAs.
    Merc Buffed with Cert Rk.2, Vie Rk. 2.
    Necro Buffed with Sigil Rk.3, Phantasmal Rk.3, Nefori Rk3
    No gear, No Fort against
    30 minute encounter against a single Spider in AH as to remove as many variables as possible. Unfortunately due to the length of the parse I'm getting errors with the hit graphs, this will have to do.

    Tanking summary for: Dingbat (Kunon) --- Total damage: 20404655 --- Avg hit: 8135 --- Swings: 3333 --- Defended: 618 (18.5%) --- Hit: 2508 (75.2%) --- Missed: 207 (6.2%) --- Accuracy: 92.4% --- Dodged: 104 (3.6%) --- Parried: 106 (3.4%) --- Blocked: 227 (6.8%) --- Riposted: 119 (4%) --- Absorbed: 62 (1.9%)

    Dingbat (Kunon) - vs - A murkweb spider (Hits Only, removed Bash)
    Attempts 3119 100%
    Missed 193 6.19%
    Dodged 97 3.11%
    Parried 101 3.24%
    Blocked 211 6.76%
    Riposted 106 3.4%
    Absorbed 61 1.96%
    2985 1 0.03%
    3055 490 15.71%
    3731 69 2.21%
    4406 84 2.69%
    5082 109 3.49%
    5758 110 3.53%
    6434 85 2.73%
    6769 1 0.03%
    7110 106 3.4%
    7785 111 3.56%
    8153 1 0.03%
    8461 106 3.4%
    8559 1 0.03%
    9137 120 3.85%
    9813 86 2.76%
    10489 103 3.3%
    11164 97 3.11%
    11840 103 3.3%
    12516 79 2.53%
    12543 2 0.06%
    13192 69 2.21%
    13868 61 1.96%
    14543 61 1.96%
    15219 60 1.92%
    15895 235 7.53%

    On Tanking:
    It took several attempts to get a parse this long. Even with EM20 this pet dies within seconds if I stopped even briefly from spam casting Algid Mending Rk.3 (only heal) next to a merc on Reactive due to mitigation, avoidance and HP issues. While this is the *DPS* pet and not meant to tank it has serious survivability issues even in group content if a mob looks at it much less in a raid setting. It's DPS is a whole 200 DPS higher than the 97 Tank Pet which needs serious improvement given its durability issues and role as a *DPS* pet. Otherwise there is no reason to use it.

    100 Pet - A murkweb spider in 1717s, 3553k @2069dps --- Dingbat (Kunon) 3553k @2069dps
    97 Pet - A murkweb spider in 1800s, 3352k @1862dps --- Dingbat (Kunon) 3351k @1862dps

    The problem appears to lay in the hit distribution which was expanded both higher and lower for the 100 Pet in the recent patches. The hit distribution graph mimics the old pet tanking DI spread with nearly 80% of hits falling at the lowest 2 amounts which has actually lowered the pets DPS.


    Level 97 Necro Warrior Pet. EM20. Max AAs.
    Merc Buffed with Cert Rk.2, Vie Rk. 2.
    Necro Buffed with Sigil Rk.3, Phantasmal Rk.3, Nefori Rk3
    No gear, No Fort against
    30 minute encounter against that same Spider in AH as to remove as many variables as possible. Again due to the length of the parse I'm getting errors with the hit graphs, this will have to do.

    Tanking summary for: Dingbat (Kunon) --- Total damage: 20327482 --- Avg hit: 7797 --- Swings: 3415 --- Defended: 603 (17.7%) --- Hit: 2607 (76.3%) --- Missed: 205 (6%) --- Accuracy: 92.7% --- Dodged: 105 (3.5%) --- Parried: 99 (3.1%) --- Blocked: 207 (6.1%) --- Riposted: 120 (3.9%) --- Absorbed: 72 (2.1%)

    Dingbat (Kunon) - vs - A murkweb spider (Hits only, removed Bash)
    Attempts 3197 100%
    Missed 193 6.04%
    Dodged 95 2.97%
    Parried 93 2.91%
    Blocked 198 6.19%
    Riposted 112 3.5%
    Absorbed 70 2.19%
    2750 4 0.13%
    3055 605 18.92%
    3731 79 2.47%
    4406 111 3.47%
    5082 88 2.75%
    5758 103 3.22%
    6434 92 2.88%
    7110 112 3.5%
    7785 96 3%
    8224 1 0.03%
    8461 93 2.91%
    9137 123 3.85%
    9441 1 0.03%
    9813 89 2.78%
    10489 103 3.22%
    10656 2 0.06%
    11164 101 3.16%
    11840 86 2.69%
    12482 1 0.03%
    12516 70 2.19%
    13192 60 1.88%
    13868 61 1.91%
    14543 55 1.72%
    15219 62 1.94%
    15895 238 7.44%

    On Tanking:
    Both pets have identical avoidance (copy paste) but this one has slightly better mitigation (AC) with a smoother hit distribution and more importantly more HPs. The HP difference allowed the Reactive Merc to keep up and prevented the pet from getting two rounded before heals landed so long as neither round was particularly high. I still had to cast Algid Mending Rk.3 every 15 - 20 seconds because the Merc would fall behind and the pet would die to lower damage spikes. As it stands now this pet is serviceable with some management (Added heal every 20 seconds and Rune as they refresh) so long as you have Raid EM Focus, Max Pet AA and have RB running for the extra heals against the weakest trash mobs. Anything less and against anything bigger and survivability is doubtful. As such this pet still needs more work in the survivability department to be suitable for group geared Necros.

    Pet Enrage was brought up again and I had almost forgotten about that. While there is still an emote indicating that a pet (regular or swarm) has Enraged there is no change in its performance as it still dies immediately.
  16. idej Augur

    It tells me that tanks are underpowered in the group game.
    It tells me tank gear progression is too vigorous.
    It tells me your tanks did not raid.
    It tells me your friends prefer the solo game over the group game because a tank can start a group in a heartbeat.
    It tells me that you're very popular to know 15 tanks.
  17. amping New Member

    I have no idea what the other half did they just vanished like i said? Maybe 1 - 5 of them over the last 3 years I met even play as a tank anymore.

    And I agree with you about your first point (group merchant vendors ) (heroic adventures) (warrior aa and spell boosts) what do you think all that happened for ?

    And the last point you made I am not sure on but when almost every pet passively mitigates a better average hit then a raid warrior cycling all of their disciplines and aa it sure looks like a directly linked problem.

    Kind of like the low population of melee dps around looks like the same kind of problem. ( i am just guessing here not stating this as a fact)

    I know way more tanks then that , that is the amount of new tanks I have met this year.
  18. Piemastaj Augur

    Vanished is the point. New games come out, people get bored ect. Assuming the 50% mark and then not filling in the other 50% leaves a hole in your argument. Your using random numbers to try and fill a void in your argument.

    That all happened, because of design. If you think that pets have anything to do with group tanks being good or bad I have no more words for you. Design would be the fault, or players asking for more difficult content (harder hitting mobs).

    Aristo said in the first sense heading thread that he wants pets to passive mitigate better then tanks. So that argument is moot.

    Your made up numbers do nothing for this argument and have pushed this off topic for a little too long. Need to get back to parses and not conjecture based on things taken out of context.
  19. Bryan Augur

    This probably isn't significant, and doesn't help the thread but...

    When I returned from a long break, I started boxing almost right away. I went with warrior, cleric, bard, wizard, magician, ... and something else, I forget.

    I played this setup until low 60s. After many conversations about the 70+ game, I quickly realized the time it would take to get/keep my warrior able to tank content as I progressed. Not only that, I'd have to remain gold on that account to stay tanky.

    Skip ahead to today. I box bard (main/raid), healer merc, wiz, mage x3.

    The only account I retain gold on is the bard. The 4 casters I got to 100, went gold for a month to farm AA, autogranted at 4kaa, got a few more AA, dropped subscription, used SC to get R2 spells.

    With group gear, R2 spells, and no prestige items, up to the current changes, my box set was a serious powerhouse. It's easy mode in the group game (aside from PoW of course). The changes (current and potential on live) are going to suck. But I feel they are warranted, so long as the changes aren't a knee jerk reaction... minor changes are ok. Changes to the degrees I''ve been reading about are pretty drastic, relatively speaking.

    At least in my case I have multiple RS running interference, keeping the initial bursts of damage off the pets while I burn things down. For pet classes just running one account, I understand why so many are distraught by the severity of changes on test at least.
  20. Bashan Journeyman

    Warrior with merc cert and self buffs tanking yellow con in AH for 13 minutes and 13 seconds
    EM 20 Earth Pet with all mage buffs and abilities tanking yellow con in AH for 12 minutes 41 seconds

    A correctly played tank will always out tank a pet. I saw my last post people wanted longer parseing of over 10 minutes. People said 3 and 4 minutes was a " sweet spot for warriors " so here is more than 10min. If you are out tanked by a pet the problem isn't the pet as I said before. I cant speak for the other 2 tank classes as I only play a warrior. However, a correctly played warrior never has everything on lockout and can spread out disc and ability usage to have continuous survivability.
    Warrior on Bristlebane
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