Test Update 8/08/2014 - Pet Changes Round 3

OK so I watched the video of the mage and earth pet successfully killing a yellow mob (all the running around made me a little dizzy, but still...). Mage was doing some healing and some DPS (the servant IS DPS). But it took 8 minutes to kill 1 trash yellow mob. How long would it take say an SK with a healer to kill that same mob? I don't care if it's a player or merc healer, but don't say it isn't a fair comparison, because the pet had healing. I highly doubt it would take the SK that long to kill the mob.

What about fighting 2 mobs? Well the SK would probably separate and single-pull the mob so they could fight just one at a time. A mage would have to use Companion of Necessity to single-pull, and then wait for cooldown to use it again. But then if it is going to take them 8 minutes to kill the mob I guess they don't have a long wait after the fight.

Of course the mage could use a merc - either a healer so they can DPS, or a caster so the mage can focus on heals - and the fight would go much faster. That's 1 player with 2 NPCs fighting, vs. the tank with one healer merc (1 NPC). Yes, the mage does have an edge here which makes them able to tank that mob faster. How would the time compare to our above SK with their healer? I don't know the answer, but I bet people can support it both ways. And yet SKs do have a pet they can use which provides additional DPS. That makes it 2 NPCs for both again.

Oh, but warriors don't have pets, and can't do the DPS that the mage or SK can. How long would a warrior with a healer merc take to kill that same mob? I don't play a warrior so I don't know other than what other people tell me. Should warriors do more DPS than they currently do? Maybe. Or do they excel at other things that the mage doesn't?

Make it 2 mobs. 3 mobs. I think you see the PC tank does better, or at least I certainly expect it should. That's what a tank should be able to do. You wouldn't send a real army tank out to kill one soldier, but send it against a squad of soldiers and who is going to likely win?

I don't raid much, so I don't spend a lot of time with warriors. I do group with lots of SKs and occasionally paladins. They can tear through the trash a lot faster than I can. I'd much rather have them tanking than my pet. But it is nice to know that if things go wrong I may be able to save things with my pet. If not I will likely end up just as dead as my SK friend. In fact probably die more often than they do.

I am always willing to group with others. Many times it is with those classes such as rogues and rangers and monks who can't find a group with a real tank. OK, my pet can tank, but you better stand back and do ranged mr rogue or miss monk because my pet can't keep agro off you if you try to melee. A PC tank doesn't have that issue.

I dislike the term "afk tanking" because if I really go afk while my pet is fighting something chances are I will come back to a dead mage because that mob got to low health and wander off and brought back friends to kill me. And except for a very few rare items, mages have no snare or root that they can cast.

Can I, as a mage, kill easier stuff without a lot of key mashing on my part? Yes, that is one of the reasons I play a mage. I have bad arthritis in my hands, and can't do it for very long. Should it require a lot more key mashing to kill named mobs and multiple higher level mobs? Yes, it should and it already does, at least for the majority of us mages. Tell me I have to start doing that for trash blue mobs, or go back to killing light blues and I will probably have to stop playing.

I'd gladly try to provide parse data, but some back a few patches ago I started getting lots of latency issues that would make any data I could provide rather useless. That same issue makes it hard for me to do loads of key mashing as well.

Yes, there are significant differences between classes. That's what makes EQ so much fun and enjoyable to a wide range of players and styles. Is this bowl of apples better than that bag or oranges or that bowl of cherries? I don't know, what do you like better, apples, oranges or cherries? Making the apples rotten won't make the oranges or cherries any sweeter. If the oranges aren't that good maybe we need better oranges. If there's something wrong with your class, then rally to try and get it improved. If you don't like your class, then go try another class. Just don't try to pull another class down to share the misery.

BTW I have played my mage continuously since April 1, 2000. I have been through all the expansions, t1/t2 CotF group-geared, EM15 focus with full pet AAs, over 9100 AA currently. I am not one of those raid-geared uber mages that can steamroll over group content, but maybe a lot better than many mages out there, in particular those newer mages. It's the latter group of mages and the other pet classes that I am most worried about. I truly hope in their quest to change pets the devs don't hurt them too much.

Good game design does not flow from word or phrase definitions. Classes should have different strengths and weaknesses but all represent a player. There should be no chumps and no champs.

A solo class is one which can play well solo compared to other classes. One player class solo compared to one other player class solo. The comparison point is not to a group of players. One player doesn't get to equal a group of others. Or shouldn't. If it does it really is super.

Solo ability is the consequence of having the right combination of abilities. It is not the justification for them.

/cough Did you notice I mauled 3 yes 3 keepers in under 2 min with just self buffs, merc buffs, and potion haste? Who thinks 8 min for 1 keeper kill for a mage is good and balanced vs. a ranger? Haha. My bot is a wizard, so I don't care tremendously about pets other than any sane person should see this is way out of balance. BTW Hannil - 0 vs. 4 keepers - 2. Getting closer though.

Isn't 3 mobs what she asked him to repeat?

hahahaha no. Not now. Not ever.

SUPER CLASS is sensational sounding propoganda and nothing more. Pet classes are not the best classes in any other situation in everquest OTHER than soloing. Wizard is better than mage for burst and sustained in short group fights. Necro dps is crap in groups due to only being able to use 1-2 swift dots and a swarm before mobs die. And unless necro or beastlord's utility is needed (maybe necro to root something and beastlord to buff), they can be replaced by any other dps or hybrid easily.

So not the best in groups, what about raids? Pets are useful for encounters where player tanks would be mezzed. Otherwise warrior is better in all regards. Paladins are useful for healing/off-tanking, and SK's for kiting and aoe-taunting and off-tanking adds. Off-pet tanking may have good uses, not been to many raids so dunno there. Mage and Necro can do good sustained but sustained dps I hear is not nearly as important lately on raids as burst, and burst classes like wizard can do good sustained dps as well. So not the best on raiding either.

So, spare me your propoganda cheese

You noticed that I was letting the pet do almost all of the killing, and spending time running in circles doing nothing in down time where I could have been actively fighting?

Denial how do pets on test compare to pets on live post-ac nerf? Just about the same or slightly under? Because honestly, live seems pretty fair to me. Overpowered for singles, underpowered for multiples and named, compared to an equally geared group tank using active mitigation

And I just wanted to point out, that since posting the videos, the conversations have shifted away from "my pet can't tank a mob without omglolsupport-- here are the numbers!!" to...

What it is now.

Regardless of what you may or may not think by my methods, I brought out some honesty.

You definitely did....for pets....and mostly for player tanks. Except I believe you were "pulling back" your player tank active cooldown use (which I understand, because just how many actives at once is a fair amount to use to simulate regular use? No one can say)....making player tanks look far weaker than other tanks who stepped up to the plate and posted parses with either smarter or more effective active ability use...and it showed in the parse results

But other than that I detected no dishonesty

No. The video linked was of killing 2 yellow con mobs(go back and watch it again) which can clearly be done as shown. Even offered the chance to use EM20. Then another video was linked but got a 3rd add in there.

The toon was able to kill 1 yellow con mob without any outside healing at all with whatever EM was there. Claims were made previously that killing 1 yellow con with 2 outside healers was not possible now killing 1 with no outside healing is doable and 2 with a merc is as well. This is good feedback to the devs imo. It shows what can be done when things are tried.

We aren't doing badly against one mob. In your two mob videos there were many times you were a round away from death. Yes it's doable (raid focus btw), but the amount of support the pet requires right now with a dedicated healer against two mobs is stupid to the point of spending the whole time keeping your pet up.

Again, you have also brought attention away from the fundamental design flaw in our defenses. We do adequately when fighting a single mob. Add a second mob and you have to do a whole lot more effort (nearly all casts supporting your pet). Add a third mob in current content and the vast majority of the time you're fading, gating, or dead. I'm still trying to kill 3 keeper mobs with my EM20 focus. Maybe I just suck...

Honesty is good but we still have a fundamental problem.

For a pet class to reliably handle 3 current content mobs in a non-low-tier zone (i.e. like Feerrot when it was current) is quite a lot to ask for. Too much, frankly.

Maybe what you need is a partner? Any class will do, another pet user, heal, cc, dps, tank, hell even a ranger could help. That is how most players cope with multiple mobs, unless they are raid geared end gamers slumming on group trash burning all their long re-use abilities just to show it is possible.

Asking for a raid focused pet to tank at least as well as a raid geared ranger is not too much to ask for.

All of this is a bandaid to the problem. I box an enchanter and in most cases (Argin mobs are immune to almost everything) I can single pull fine. And since I am raid geared with basically max spell damage augs (my magelo isn't premium so it doesn't reflect my gear) and have beaten everything in Argin-Hiz I'm in that second phase.

Again, a rune that block 9 hits (1 min recast) will block 9% of incoming damage with 1 mob (assuming 100 swings in a minute), 4.5% with two mobs, and 3% with 3 mobs. That's a huge deterioration in our main defensive ability. Plus RS pets now die before they can be resummoned. So we have a big problem with our abilities that needs to be addressed.

Oh i have not forgotten about your post. Just waiting for Brutial to get online so i can parse the pet while moloing it with one merc.

So if a pally dies in a group mission and the pet saves the group from wiping, is the pally happy or sad? is the group happy or sad?

I agree that something needs added to make it a hair easier for multi pulls. Not a lot, but something that operates a little different than a rune, and can be cast more frequently than every 8 minutes or whatever fortify comes down to after the duration of the buff has expired.

I like the Groundswell stance, but the cap on the damage absorbed is a little low for multiple mobs, yet, a little high for a pet with its raw power in DI hits for a single mob.

Screaming it's impossible though...

That I disagree with.

**That doesn't mean I think that this version of pets is the right spot either, 1v1, pets are still super powerful and take hits like a champ, and all of the current abilities make them even more easy-- while I do think situational multi killing should be possible, I don't think pets should rampage through missions tanking 2-3 at all times.

Just because they're supposed to be a "viable" option, doesn't mean what they were in the past.

There are -still- calls to just revert them popping up in the 42 threads about this.

I ask again, how do pets compare on Test 2.0 vs live servers with nerf? And how is overly-strong vs singles but weak vs multiples an imbalance?

Everything in this game has a trade-off, that in itself is balance

Your definition of a solo class is basically as Delbaeth said: Super class. Shark with laserbeam eyes.
If one class can do that, others can not. How is that game balance?

One thing that Im actually curious about is why all these parses are from AH nonsnarable mobs. Is it so earthpets dont get their bonus mitigation? If your pet gets tuned for these mobs, it will be 20% overtuned for a snarable mob, right?