Test Update 8/01/2014 - Pet Changes

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Aristo, Aug 1, 2014.

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  1. Piemastaj Augur

    What about the pet DPS? I PMed you my parses, did this not go through yet or is it bugged or what?

    Thank you for taking into consideration our feedback.
  2. Raneern Journeyman

    Mak I agree with some of your suggestions and I found the Warrior parse interesting.

    With that said the level of interference that has come towards my class and towards 40% of the DPS players in this game, during the prior months, has reached the point of insanity. Doing away with that issue is a significantly better topic than the one we’re all spending our time testing.
  3. sojero One hit wonder

    shaman slow - this spell was partially successful (didnt want to dmg it to turn into undead to slow with nec)
    97 nec war pet
    EM 12
    3 healers all on efficient

    sturdy companion 11/18
    companions durability 15/21
    fortify companion 6/12

    Aegis of Kildrukaun AA
    Aegis of Nefori
    Phantasmal Ward
    cascading boneshield

    I could have easily cast 3-4 dots per twist of the other spells
    found that Phantasmal ward really isnt worth it, wont be using it any more.
    was able to cast fortify comapnion 2 times

    97 Nec war pet - vs - A tirun punisher
    time 2059 sec (34.316 min)
    NPC DPS 4237
    avg hit 6880
    Attempts 1242

    60 1 0.08%
    469 1 0.08%
    568 1 0.08%
    569 1 0.08%
    671 1 0.08%
    803 2 0.16%
    1036 1 0.08%
    1138 1 0.08%
    1171 1 0.08%
    1270 1 0.08%
    1272 1 0.08%
    1336 1 0.08%
    1338 1 0.08%
    1339 1 0.08%
    1659 1 0.08%
    1664 1 0.08%
    1771 1 0.08%
    1873 3 0.24%
    2005 1 0.08%
    2107 1 0.08%
    2143 1 0.08%
    2296 46 3.7%
    2372 1 0.08%
    2373 1 0.08%
    2473 1 0.08%
    2606 1 0.08%
    2607 1 0.08%
    2639 221 17.79%
    2820 10 0.81%
    2974 1 0.08%
    3076 1 0.08%
    3241 33 2.66%
    3343 7 0.56%
    3842 37 2.98%
    3866 9 0.72%
    4045 1 0.08%
    4176 1 0.08%
    4277 1 0.08%
    4362 1 0.08%
    4390 10 0.81%
    4412 2 0.16%
    4443 44 3.54%
    4778 1 0.08%
    4881 1 0.08%
    4913 6 0.48%
    5012 1 0.08%
    5045 48 3.86%
    5114 1 0.08%
    5380 1 0.08%
    5435 14 1.13%
    5581 1 0.08%
    5613 2 0.16%
    5646 36 2.9%
    5700 1 0.08%
    5701 1 0.08%
    5848 1 0.08%
    5930 1 0.08%
    5958 13 1.05%
    6017 1 0.08%
    6214 1 0.08%
    6215 1 0.08%
    6247 45 3.62%
    6338 1 0.08%
    6371 1 0.08%
    6482 7 0.56%
    6583 1 0.08%
    6683 1 0.08%
    6848 45 3.62%
    7005 12 0.97%
    7049 1 0.08%
    7050 1 0.08%
    7051 1 0.08%
    7284 1 0.08%
    7285 1 0.08%
    7450 35 2.82%
    7524 1 0.08%
    7528 5 0.4%
    7651 1 0.08%
    7886 2 0.16%
    8051 62 4.99%
    8433 1 0.08%
    8574 7 0.56%
    8621 1 0.08%
    8652 38 3.06%
    8854 2 0.16%
    9097 3 0.24%
    9125 1 0.08%
    9254 44 3.54%
    9455 1 0.08%
    9621 4 0.32%
    9691 1 0.08%
    9855 45 3.62%
    10057 1 0.08%
    10144 12 0.97%
    10189 1 0.08%
    10456 33 2.66%
    10667 2 0.16%
    11058 30 2.42%
    11190 3 0.24%
    11627 1 0.08%
    11659 30 2.42%
    11713 3 0.24%
    11723 1 0.08%
    11727 1 0.08%
    12095 1 0.08%
    12236 19 1.53%
    12260 21 1.69%
    12861 19 1.53%
    13463 21 1.69%
    14064 85 6.84%

    Other fight (already posted just healing, no defensive used 65 min parse)
    NPC 10102 dps to pet
  4. ~Mills~ Augur

    Thanks for listening to the feedback! Two things to remember when you are trying to achieve the bolded portion of your comment above is that in order for it to be true for all tank pets is that you need to tune so that the necro tank pet is your baseline. As it is the weakest link in the tank chain for main pets having the weakest base stats, the least/weakest support from its owner and having a huge AA/spell disadvantage for mitigation/hp help and activated tanking help wise. So necro tank pets either need major help to catch them up to the other tank pets or be the pet you use to tune to your above comment so they still function. And I hope you are doing this tuning based on group geared focused pets. It would be a shame if raid focused pets are the standard for group content.

    Also please consider the dps aspects. No one wants to infringe on mages or totally change the dps dynamic you feel is appropriate for necromancers but currently there is really no reason to use our rogue pet as there is such a small difference its not worth giving up the giant gap in survivability just in case. You could double his current dps and neither of the above factors would come into play as we don't have a pet aura, don't have nearly the pet burn AA in power or duration nor do we have both aa and spell proc buffs to boost it even more. Base stat wise things could be brought a lot closer dps wise for our rogue pet and a mage water pet. Also if anything necro swarm pets for groupers could have used a bump up in dps not down as these account for probably 30-50% of our dps in fast groups. Again base wise they could be equal to a mage swarm pet dps wise and we still would not see equal dps in game as we don't have a pet aura or other help for them.
    Raneern and Gyurika Godofwar like this.
  5. Zellic Elder

    Good luck with that!
  6. Zellic Elder

    DPS is not the issue. DI distribution is what matters. Just like it was back then.
  7. ~Mills~ Augur

    Not exactly as it doesn't equate to what actually happens in game when tanking. Showing what a pet does for 3 minutes vs a named mob while tanking compared to what a tank does in turtle mode when tanking that duration is what matters. As does what a pet does tanking 2-3 trash mobs for 3 minutes compared to what a tank does while using his fast refresh and reuse tools is what matters. Showing what a pet does passively verse what a tank does either afk or with parses so long that it ignores their discs impact in actual in game situations is flat out framing and misleading people with bs data. If pets had all the activated discs and help that PC tanks have AND mitigated better we would have a bigger issue in which all that mattered was the DI distribution and most pet classes would agree a bigger change was in order.

    Dps plays a major part to some of these pets as some are supposedly designed with that in matter exclusively see a necro rogue pet model and swarm pets outside of a mages beefy off tank single pet which is still one of their largest dps spells if not the biggest.
    Raneern and Gyurika Godofwar like this.
  8. Zellic Elder

    It's two different issues. Tanks, and warriors especially, do currently clearly outtank pets in group content where things like NTTB is extremely powerful. Against high attack hard hitters like raid nameds, AC matters more and NTTB is basically nearly useless. Defensive starts to shine here, but so did the huge HP pool and base AC of the mage earth pet, which is why it was a valid strategy to tank the very highest hitting raid mobs with pets, they just didn´t get spiked to death nearly as often as a player tank, even a war under disc. They still probably took a higher DPS than the warrior, it just doesn't matter much as long as you can provide the pet with more HP per second than it's losing.

    Basically, if the mob is going to try to hit you for 65k 10 times, which scenario would you prefer:
    1. The mob hits you 6 times for 30k, spread out, and misses you 4 times. At worst you get a triple for 3*30k.
    2. The mob misses you 7 times but then triples you for 50k+ per hit in succession, meaning you take a 150k damage spike.

    Numbers completely made up on the spot but I'm just trying to illustrate how it looked, where the first is a mage earth pet with 200k+ HP that lives, the second is a knight that gets 1-rounded. The knight took less DPS, and still died. DPS just isn't relevant in this situation.

    Obviously in group content this problem wasn't obvious, or even present at all in most cases, since the chance of getting 1-rounded in group content is very small. Even before the nerf, group tanks could do things pets just couldn't compare with, due to having proper crowd control (more than just a taunt and some rage swords).

    Even average hit is a much better way to measure, albeit not perfect, since other things factor into it as well, like having a large HP pool. But DPS is just not relevant so long as you can keep up heals and not soak up too much mana doing so.
  9. ~Mills~ Augur

    When pets tank better than players in raids its because pets negate or avoid something entirely like charm, mezz or something else that only effects PC's. When its a pets take damage better then tanks issue 99 times out of a 100 its not one pet tank doing the job of a PC better its instead sending in 100's of disposable quickly restored pets on a mob to completely overwhelm it instead of a PC tanking it. Yes we often see mage pets on to the top of the aggro list and lasting longer then the other pets because of how much better they are then other tank pets but its not a single pet out performing a PC character unless as I said some nasty spell or aspect totally avoids pets.
    Troutfest likes this.
  10. Truklin Elder

    True, but also a lot of raid bosses have 100% strikethrough, negating all forms of dodge/riposte/block/parry. So a pet that can mitigate damage better but has less avoidance would tank said raid boss better, everytime.
  11. Magik Journeyman

    DPS matters a lot when you don't have a crew of healers topping you off. During a raid, its all about just surviving rounds, because you have overhealing going on with no mana issues. In a group with one healer, if they can't keep up with incoming dps, you are dead. Low DI is far more important when you are fighting a mob that can one round you. In the group game, this doesn't happen. DI is important, but incoming dps is what matters in the group game.
  12. Zellic Elder

    Yes, absolutely. Which is why it would be better to balance pets around tanks, with higher avoidance and lower mitigation. To a point of course, since pets don't have the same amount of actives to avoid spikes, nor should they; mages and other pet classes have enough buttons to push.
  13. Magik Journeyman

    I hope that the pets end up being a little better than the are on LIVE now. Test is just ridiculous and I know they did that on purpose to find a sweet spot, but pets even on live now, are still too weak. I think a good goal is that with a healer merc on reactive, a tank pet should be able to stay alive against a top tiered named mob, maybe with some help from the owner too.

    I don't think pets were causing that big of a deal, even before the EM nerf. It was so nice to be able to log in and kill things, without getting frustrated. It seems this whole nerfing of pets was brought on from envy/jealousy of a few people. If not for a parse from one guy, pets would still be considered fine.

    I'm all for upping the dps of the dps pets and lowering their tanking, but let the warrior pets tank properly.
    guado likes this.
  14. ~Mills~ Augur

    Yes 100% strikethrough hurts PC's more then pets because PC's have way more avoidance to lose. But it still doesn't put pets above PC tanks as PC tanks have a ton of activated tools at their disposal. Raid bosses and lots of raid mobs are flat out tuned vs a PC tank under his best defensive ability. Even the group game is seeing this more and more that content is tuned for tanks under some ability leaving the rest of us going splat in a round or a few because we simply can't handle the incoming dps or take all high DI interval damage.

    Again the only time this is an advantage for the pet to the point of PC's being worst is if the tank is afk or there is some nasty effect that hits PC's only. Its honestly like claiming mercs need to be fixed because if a cleric is afk merc clerics out heal them or a dps merc needs a 500% reduction in dps because if a wizard or rogue goes afk passively a merc out performs them.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  15. Gnomeland Augur

    Even without nerfs, a raid warrior today with his shield stance ought to out-tank earth pets every single time, because the 30% reduction on DI damage easily makes up for the moderate DI distribution and HP advantage earth pets have.

    Knights are a different story. Insofar as earth pets are preferable over knights in raids they are going to continue being so unless they're nerfed to trash. This is simply because knights' survivability comes from healing; their DI reduction and distribution, vis-a-vis warriors, is in fact PRETTY DAMN BAD, especially SKs, and their HPs are also lower to such a degree that it begins to make a huge difference.

    IMO, there is simply no way to balance knights vs. pets in the current system because there is a fundamental difference between how knights survive and how pets survive. Make pets as bad as knights in mitigation/HP and you have a trash tank. Make knights as great in mitigation/HP as a pet and you have god mode.
  16. sojero One hit wonder

    If you really want to get into why a pet can tank a raid mob that has 100% strikethrough more than a war tank can, they are about = during FS, after that, pet wins. the following is a sample of what can be almost chain casted on a pet, and then the pet caster also can have a backup pet, and you have 3 mages with their pets set up to take agro one after the other. They can even fade their pet to save them if they run out of abilities. In this scenario you also have a 2 clerics ready to cast ward of cert on the other 2 pets if one goes down (set hotkey) to find out which is next if player control isn't the best. also the main reason by far is they are not effected by many effects that raid bosses can do to force tank swaps.

    BTW we pet tanked dragon in EW raid last night (with current pet changes that are on live) to help a guild with some flags, and one pet tanked it from 100%-20% and only died because the healers got thrown at a bad round and so did the mage so he couldn't cast his blocks.

    before fight:
    Second wind ward - This ability lasts 30 min (is extendable) and during that time when pet is <20% health, this increases HP by 12k initially, 5k per tick for 2 ticks, increases AC by 97. 30 min reuse
    at the start of fight
    Auspice of Shadows Rk. III - Block Melee or Spells (5), Max: 50499 - cast before fight
    Aegis of Kildrukaun AA - 4 seconds in
    aegis of nefori rk III 9 hits 22902 - cast 8 seconds in
    Auspice of Shadows Rk. III - Block Melee or Spells (5), Max: 50499 - cast 12 seconds in
    Groundswell Stance Rk. III - Mitigate Melee Damage by 33%, 60600 total - 16 seconds in
    fortify companion + frenzied burnout - 20 seconds in
    Auspice of Shadows Rk. III - Block Melee or Spells (5), Max: 50499 - 25 seconds in
    Aegis of Kildrukaun AA - 28 sec in
    aegis of nefori rk III - 30 secs in

    after this you can keep doing them as they refresh or switch pets every 30-40 seconds.
  17. Gnomeland Augur

    You can't cast groundswell stance while chaining aegis spells.

    But yes chaining pets has ever been an effective strategy when your DPS is entirely ranged and has ways to drop their aggro on a switch.

    That's a hole in EQ design - making it too easy for DPS to drop their aggro.

    To a lesser degree, it's also doable with player tanks via in-combat ressing and buffing.

    That has been there from day 1.
  18. sojero One hit wonder

    Thank I should have checked the groundwell stance cast conflicts, I thought it was like cascading boneshield for nec, which can be done in between the aegis casts.
  19. Pyemia Elder

    Aristo, I'm confused about your aim.

    I don't believe there are pets out there that can tank mobs without healing (that are current content). Is what you're talking about, "molo while AFK"? Because that is really 1 1/2 to 2 players, one is afk, the other is healing. The merc healer isn't "AFK". It is active.

    So, is your end goal that merc healers cannot heal pets by themselves?
  20. Ineptocracy Leader Elder

    I hope the merc can on trash, i hope it cannot on nameds.
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