Test Update 8/01/2014 - Pet Changes

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Aristo, Aug 1, 2014.

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  1. Kreacher Augur

    Well, why don't you.....you know with that heroic warrior of yours.
  2. sojero One hit wonder

    Test One Hundred on 8/3/2014 in 1502sec
    --- DMG: 1878996 (100%) @ 1249 dps (1249 sdps)
    --- DMG: 1878996 (100%) @ 1249 dps (1249 sdps)

    From an SK the changes to skel dps are nice. Thank you, approx. 40% upgrade atm on test.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  3. Siddar Augur

    My observation is that while pets are close to the desired goal but there yet versus non named mobs. Versus named mobs they're far below the 35-40% DI rate. They lose roughly half to two third of there DI 1 hits versus named mobs. Players on other hand have a 45+% not being hit rate because of various types of avoidance effects and that rate only drops marginally versus named mobs.

    Pets are underpowered because of the massive drop off in DI 1 hits versus named mobs. There seems to be a tipping point involved here and I question weather pets designed to tank can be balanced with separate AC values. You need to get one AC value for the tank pets and then use non AC effects to separate the different pets from each other. HP and other damage reduction effects that wont run into a tipping point like AC that causes pets tanking to crater.

    The other things is pets need more active defense abilities to offset the increased amount of damage they receive from named mobs when compared to there prechange rate even if the issue of DI 1 drop off is fixed.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  4. Makavien Augur

    Em 20 Earth pet Vs Roon With 1 JM Tier 5 healer Merc On Test
    Roon was defeated.

    Roon on 8/2/2014 in 347sec

    --- DMG: 5023661 (100%) @ 14477 dps (14477 sdps)
    --- DMG to PC: 3620859 @10435dps

    Casttalot + pets
    --- DMG: 3513086 (69.93%) @ 10843 dps (10124 sdps)

    --- DMG: 1510575 (30.07%) @ 4353 dps (4353 sdps)
    --- DMG to PC: 3620859 @10435dps

    Roon on 8/2/2014

    Casttalot - 90
    --- Aegis of Kildrukaun - 6
    --- Elemental Union - 1
    --- Empowered Focus of Arcanum - 1
    --- Fire Core - 1
    --- Fortify Companion - 1
    --- Frenzied Burnout - 1
    --- Host of the Elements - 1
    --- Howl of Tashan - 1
    --- Iron Bolt Rk. III - 21
    --- Obedient Companion - 1
    --- Promised Amelioration Rk. II - 1
    --- Relentless Servant Rk. II - 16
    --- Renewal of Hererra Rk. II - 16
    --- Replenish Companion - 1
    --- Second Wind Ward - 1
    --- Servant of Ro - 1
    --- Spear of Blistersteel Rk. II - 14
    --- Twincast - 1
    --- Twincast Rk. II - 1
    --- Virulent Talon - 1
    --- Wind of Malosinete - 2

    Tanking summary for: Goner --- Total damage: 3620859 --- Avg hit: 8831 --- Swings: 685 --- Defended: 210 (30.7%) --- Hit: 410 (59.9%) --- Missed: 65 (9.5%) --- Accuracy: 86.3% --- Dodged: 13 (2.2%) --- Parried: 25 (3.8%) --- Blocked: 27 (3.9%) --- Riposted: 40 (6.3%) --- Absorbed: 105 (15.3%)
  5. Makavien Augur

    Raid Geared Warrior Vrs Roon With only Self Buffs & Certitude Rank 2 (No slow or Cripple) All Defensives used and no Offensive Discipline but used all other burns.
    Roon Killed
    1 Cleric Merc

    Roon in 1065s, 8440k @7925dps --- Finalstand + pets 8407k @7894dps

    Roon on 8/4/2014

    Finalstand - 441
    --- Armor of Experience - 1
    --- Battle Leap - 3
    --- Battle Stomp - 19
    --- Blade Guardian - 1
    --- Blast of Anger - 14
    --- Brace For Impact - 1
    --- Brell's Sacred Stone Balm - 67
    --- Brutal Onslaught Disc - 1
    --- Defensive / Evasive disc ended - 6
    --- Defensive Proficiency - 3
    --- First Spire of the Warlord - 2
    --- Fortitude Disc - 1
    --- Fortitude disc ended - 1
    --- Frightful Force - 31
    --- Glyph of the Cataclysm - 1
    --- Guardian's Bravery - 3
    --- Gut Punch - 30
    --- Heroic Blade - 1
    --- Hold the Line - 1
    --- Imperator's Command - 5
    --- Infusion of Rage - 58
    --- Intensity of the Resolute - 1
    --- Knee Strike - 35
    --- Last Stand Effect III - 23
    --- Mighty Strike Disc - 1
    --- Rage of Rallos Zek - 1
    --- Resplendent Glory 5 - 1
    --- Revenge - 45
    --- Spider's Bite Poison Strike X - 11
    --- Spider's Bite Poison X - 1
    --- Strike of Ire - 66
    --- Vehement Rage - 1
    --- Vie faded - 1
    --- Warlord's Bravery - 1
    --- Warlord's Tenacity - 1
    --- Warrior's Instinct - 1
    --- Weapon Affinity Disc - 1

    Tanking summary for: Finalstand --- Total damage: 5886999 --- Avg hit: 5982 --- Swings: 2027 --- Defended: 743 (36.7%) --- Hit: 984 (48.5%) --- Missed: 300 (14.8%) --- Accuracy: 76.6% --- Dodged: 144 (10.1%) --- Parried: 304 (15.5%) --- Blocked: 66 (3.3%) --- Riposted: 229 (13.8%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)


    Raneern and Aristo like this.
  6. Raneern Journeyman

    Above there is a post showing the Best pet in game with a raid focus fighting a COFT entry level named mob (ROON). Following that there’s some information showing a warrior fighting the same mob. The DPS against the warrior isn’t listed. It can be recalculated however with the available information.

    FOR the BEST pet in game EM 20 the DPS listed is:

    --- DMG to PC: 3620859 @10435dps

    FOR The Raid geared warrior DPS against is not listed but can be recalculated:
    Tanking summary for: Finalstand --- Total damage: 5886999
    Roon in 1065s (as listed)
    5886999 (total dmg)

    ---DMG to PC: @ 5527.7dps

    So the player above is taking half the damage of the best pet in game with a raid focus. The warrior required 5,527 per second in heals. The pet 10,435 per second in heals.

    As a reminder one of the claims made over prior months was the Earth pet with a group focus took less damage per second than a Raid Geared Warrior. Now what we see on Test is the complete opposite. The PC is taking half the damage of the best pet available in game if that pet has a EM 20 raid focus. That represents a notable swing verses what was promoted on SOE’s boards over the prior months.

    In addition what we’re looking at above is a single mob encounter. Pet defensive abilities do not work the same on multiple mob encounters as players defensive abilities do. Players have an advantage in that area. Roughly half of pet defensive abilities do not apply to the 2nd, 3rd or subsequent mobs to show up in camp. Previously it was illustrated where two trash mobs near Argin zone line did over 18,000 damage a second to the best model pet in game. The 2nd mob did 130% more damage than the 1st mob even though it was a lower con. That’s 3.3 times more damage to content with than the warrior was contending with in the parse above.
    Mintalie and Coruth like this.
  7. Makavien Augur

    Roon on 8/4/2014 in 1065sec

    --- DMG: 8439610 (100%) @ 7925 dps (7925 sdps)
    --- DMG to PC: 5886999 @5538dps

    Finalstand + pets
    --- DMG: 8407492 (99.62%) @ 7894 dps (7894 sdps)
    --- DMG to PC: 5886999 @5538dps
    --- Special: 7 G

    I am also in the top 5 in ac and 6th in hp and have the highest heroic dexterity in the game .

    I also cycled most disciplines 3 times.

    But I will agree with you in a way.

    I think the earth pet nerf needs reduced by 15%
    The Air pet 25%
    Necro and beastlord pets 25%
    Rampaging Servant completely reversed.
    Water pet 10% reduction in the nerf of mitigation

    Or just a flat 25% across the board.

    I also think with the new expansion pets should receive both promised and renewal heals that do not make the magician or any other pet class switch targets when they are cast.

    The warrior was also at 3% endurance when I finished the fight with roon and shoon.

    While the magician was at 68% mana without even using a mount or any other tool to regain mana except my self buff.

    I believe most well played magicians should still be able to molo and pet tank most named with a group of decent players.

    I have read a few comments from magician's of a way higher caliber then I am at pet tanking completely giving false information .

    There is absolutely no way a raid focus earth pet is dying to roon or shoon or most named in cotf tier 1 unless they are trying to solo it with no merc or outside heals. False information won't help anyone.
    onyuyan likes this.
  8. Coruth Augur

    The only problem I have with this approach is that Posting Data is only ever 1/2 the job.
    Data Analysis is also 1/2 the job.

    Figuring out what the numbers mean can be a far different skill set than creating the numbers.

    And if you focus only on the Generating Numbers set, you might miss important info from the analyzing numbers set.
  9. Gnomeland Augur

    You took 17 minutes to kill Roon on your warrior. Let me ask you this, even though I know the answer - what was the amount of DPS you took during the 3 minutes your Final Stand was actually active? Because, you know, that's what matters at the end of the day and not a 17 min parse vs. Roon?

    Put it another way - pets have no '30-45% less damage' defensives to pop when they are suddenly faced with a challenging tanking situation. All player tanks do. Challenging content is tuned to player tanks popping their defensives and the group burning down the content during those defensives. It's not tuned to the player tank auto-attacking while AFK. 17 minute molo parses are useless in a practical setting. What are useful are 3-4 minute parses, where both pet users and player tanks go all-out with their defensive capabilities.

    Of course, pet users have heals while warriors do not, so those have to be factored in, too. Yet, even with those factored in, I'm going to be darned to not see warriors taking a third of the actual DPS an earth pet takes while Final Stand is up.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  10. Makavien Augur

    I am not sure I used it 2 times. Why does that matter anyway it took me 17 minutes to molo him so no matter what it would not of been up the entire time ? It's not like you are thinking . What do you think its going to magically reduce the damage hes putting out to a 1000 dmg average hit ?

    Because it is not going to.
  11. Unsunghero Elder

    Gnomeland has a point. It's not a comparison of how well Roon is killed, or how much dps u need or how long it takes, it's about how well u can tank roon, assuming u are grouping (not vs Roon maybe but others). So it should be short duration tanking that matters
  12. Smallpox Augur

    I find it interesting that you (as a Dev) cannot just create a toon (be it Mage, Necro, or whatever), max it out, and perform these tests yourself instead of relying on the player-base to scrounge for information (and potentially report erroneous data).

    You could simply make your pet invulnerable and parse all day to collect accurate data.
    guado likes this.
  13. Gnomeland Augur

    Because whether you're able to molo Roon while going full defensive is completely irrelevant to the discussion while how pets tank in practical situations is? The only way to see the latter is to show a parse, 3-4 minutes long, of how player tanks and pet tanks actually perform when popping full defensives vs. a mob.

    Course, we already know the answer - the player tank lol's at the mob while the pet requires spam heals no matter what you do.
  14. Casttalot New Member

    You do see how I casted 441 things while the mage casted 90 ? I used flash of anger every time I was at 20% which even defensive I had to hit it multiple times.

    There was no afk auto attacking there all offensives were used every time they were up.

    So your trying to reach to falsify the data . Sorry Aristo is going to see right through what your saying.
  15. Kreacher Augur

    You are missing some important points.
    1. You do have 3x Aegis available to you. Blocking 9 hits.
    2. You have Groundsell available to you. 33% mitigation.
    3. You have Iceflame.
    4. You are also able to step in and tank for your pet. And you have self absorbtion spells available for it.

    And finally. And this is the big one.
    Your pet has around 190k-205k HP unbuffed. Finalstand is around 130k.
    i.e They have around a 35% greater HP pool. Cleric mercs don't utlise spell focii, you will benefit greatly from a REAL healer to Crit heals and fill up the vastly greater HP pool they have.
  16. Pyemia Elder

    Maybe we should skip all this and simply have a parse of how many players EQ has before and after this goes live.
    Mintalie and Gyurika Godofwar like this.
  17. Unsunghero Elder

    If u really want to simulate killing a named, I'd use a small group, even a box'ed group, since that's what most people do. Many pet class players still box, even if they don't need to, because it's safer and quicker and more flexible to anything else u might need to do. If u can't find groupmates on test or make a decent box group, what about just shutting the parse off after the first 3 min? Because if we a really simulating tanking named, they a really aren't going to be living longer than 3min, if that, when dps classes are burning them. I don't want to be making demands tho, as u are testing, not me ;)
  18. Gnomeland Augur

    1 Aegis blocks 9 hits at Rk. III with a 36 second cooldown
    1 Aegis blocks 8 hits up to a max. hit of 18k with a 36 second cooldown
    Groundswell Stance is on the same cooldown as the aforementioned Aegis spell, therefore crossed out
    Iceflame is a random proc that effectively decreases damage by a certain, tiny %
    A cloth caster stepping in and taking a round for the pet against challenging mobs - ie not trash - is so inane it's not even worth talking about; get stunned = instant death
    Fortify Companion is a 10% vie and avoidance buff that lasts 20 seconds against challenging mobs, with a 15 min cooldown
    Frenzied Burnout lasts ~3 minutes, adds 150 AC and effectively shifts DI by a tiny %
    Host in the Shell is a 25% damage reduction that lasts 2 rounds with a 5 min cooldown

    Add all this up together and it doesn't come within a mile of what a warrior/SK/pally is able to do with active abilities.

    As for the HP advantage... That only applies to mage earth pets. And I agree, mage earth pets are still capable of tanking all the content PROVIDED YOU HAVE A PLAYER HEALER DEDICATED TO SPAMMING THE PET. Warriors, however, are capable of doing it all with a merc healer.

    The other pet classes, especially necros... Lol have fun.
    Mintalie likes this.
  19. Piemastaj Augur

    You are actually missing the important points.

    1. Those spell lines block SOME of the damage. They removed the block all DMG on Kildrukaun with these terrible new Aegis spells.

    2. Groundswell mitigates 33% of the DMG for 60k DMG. That is like 3 full rounds of max hits, which with the changes we are seeing triple the max hits compared to live. And as said, it shares lockouts with our Aegis lines.

    3. Iceflame relies on ppm, and also is 2 total hits meaning it won't even last for a full round and those 2 hits could be the low end hits. But that is the only accurate thing on your list so kudos.

    4. What self absorption spells? Tanks can have other people step in for them also, unsure how this factors into any type of data....

    Having a lot of HP does not mean they will tank well. If you can't mitigate worth a damn then all of that HP is wasted. Considering his 130k HP is granting him like 4-5k less avg hit while tanking a mob? So the lower HP is not nearly as important as your making it seem. It does not hurt to have more HP, but merely having loads of HP does not ensure anything.
    Mintalie and Gyurika Godofwar like this.
  20. Aristo Developer

    Okay. Based on the feedback from over the weekend we've made some changes and we're working on another Test update for tomorrow morning. All pets got at least some AC increase, swarm pets got bumped up more, and hopefully the Earth pet is going to return to having a big mitigation advantage against named mobs and other ones with high ATK. I'll leave this thread open for tonight to post anything that's in the pipeline, but tomorrow morning I'll open a new thread up for the new data.

    Thanks to everyone who's participated so far. We've got our own data we're gathering but the more data points you can provide the better this can be for everyone. As I mentioned before this did cut pets by more than we wanted and we're going to keep bumping them up until we find that sweet spot between "the pet requires all my attention to keep up" and "the pet can't die even if I'm AFK."
    guado, Unsunghero, beryon and 5 others like this.
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