Test Update 09/14/16 - Patch Notes and Discussions

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by EQ Dev, Sep 13, 2016.

  1. Behelit Augur

    How are you getting 8k dps gain from Psalm of Empowerment under the assumption of no hit limit? Even if you're just accounting for the DPS while its running (which is flawed given it has a 60sec recast), that would be 96k added dmg over 12sec at 138 per hit, requiring 696 hits in those 12 sec or ~58 hits a second. Factoring in the recast drops the dps to ~1600 per toon which isnt that impressive. Regardless, no melee can hit 58 times a second even under the best HHE so I'm not seeing how you came up with that number.
  2. Kutsuu Augur

    With Dichotomic Psalm, simply changing the recourse to "Single" from "Group" reduces the effectiveness tremendously (1/6th or worse for full groups depending on how many pets). Why not make that change first then reassess before deciding to further decrease the resource returns by another 50%? In a worst case scenario this reduces the mana return of the spell to 5% of the previous value. Best case (bard + 1 other player) it's reduced to less than 25% of the original value.

    The majority of software developers already understand the reasoning behind making changes one at a time, then testing the impact before making more changes. My guess is that the developers are not the ones actually in control of balance changes, and are at the mercy of some emotionally driven management types who have no business making these decisions outside of "X ability needs to be reduced, please look into it." I feel for the devs who we end up blaming for it.
  3. Riou EQResource

    That SPA is not a flat 138 per hit. It receives a damage multiplayer based on delay, every +1s delay = +1x multiplier (1s delay = 1x multiplier so base what it lists. It can also do fractions of 1s for 0.x multipliers).

    On a 4s reuse skill attack it does 4x damage from whats displayed. A -3s reuse disc on a skill still gets the 4x multiplier from that skill, HHE also does not reduce the multiplier any so even though you are swinging much faster you aren't being "penalized".

    That was also the DPS while its running the 12s if no hit limited or w/e it lasts :) so you can reduce it by 5x or what not, the point mainly was that even in best case scenario its not much dps.
  4. Zalamyr Augur

    It's just hard to understand what the justification is for what is supposed to be the premier support class getting a dicho that offers effectively no adps at all. It's not hard to do the math out on this and see that in the absolute best case scenarios, where both melee and spell portions are being used up by every group member, it can add about 120k damage total. With a minute reuse, that's 2k worth of adps, just over 300 dps per person. It now uses a resource the bard can't reasonably get back so it isn't sustainable. There's absolutely no way you could justify med breaks to use this ability, it's a joke.

    The bard dicho should be comparable to the beastlord dicho in adps significance. The gap between the two is insane. The bst one regens more mana and adds hundreds of times more adps to the group. If they feel bards already have too much adps, then give bards a dicho that isn't support oriented. Giving them a support dicho whose impact is effectively unparsable is ridiculous.
    Bamkan likes this.
  5. bbanz Elder

    It's now like most bard songs now (barring aria).... useless.
    Hellboy007 likes this.
  6. Brohg Augur

    and since they all cost 8k endurance, totally even!
    Hellboy007 likes this.
  7. flash000 Augur

    i really hope they re-look at the numbers on this before going to live but as the recent history shows they dont review test stuff at all and just dump it to live.... id be shocked if they did readjust the numbers before live push,
  8. Kutsuu Augur

    I mean if we just look at this logically, they're making too many changes at once.

    First, bard songs were not taking endurance until this patch.... but they increased the endurance cost of the song anyway, without knowing the impact of the original cost.

    Second, they fix the group recourse to be a single recourse, reducing the mana return to 1/6 (up to 1/12 depending on how many buffable pets in your group) in a full group.

    Third, they take another 56% off the top of the mana return.

    All in ONE set of changes. What the heck happened to testing one change at a time so you can properly assess the impact of each change?
    Vrinda and Razorfall like this.
  9. Razorfall Augur

  10. strongbus Augur

    If they had just changed the bard song and not the ench ver at the same time I say your right. But giving the fact that they changed the ench ver at the same time, makes me think they start out with just the changes to spell/song and found the bugs so figure they just fix it all at once.
  11. WhiskeyMike New Member

    I was at 7/10 on the Mount Keyring before patch and am now at 7/0. Is this a bug?
  12. Riley Augur

    This is an excellent quality of life addition - while we're on that, can we discuss the quality-of-life difficulties of not having access to Click From Inventory? It really sucks having to keep top-level inventory slots clear. The idea initially was that it 'wasn't in era' to have these niceties, but neither is the illusion or mount keyring. Can we revisit some quality of life UI changes for TLP yet, in the wake of this?
    Xanathol likes this.
  13. WhiskeyMike New Member

    It has not enhanced my quality of life. I can no longer use it.
  14. Kutsuu Augur

    Since enchanter is a different class, making a change to that class is a separate experiment/test from making changes to the Bard song. They also didn't fundamentally change the mechanics of the Enc version like they did the Bard version. Keep in mind Bards only way to regen endurance at a reasonable rate is to sit with out of combat regen. No Rest line like every other class with an endurance bar. They changed the cost of this ability from zero to roughly 10% of a bard's full endurance pool per cast. Just that alone makes it unsustainable without a lot of medding. Couple that with a crushing change in the mana returned (factor of 12-20) and the result is likely that bards will no longer mem the song at all. Typically the goal of a balance change is to keep an ability useful without being too strong.
    Brohg likes this.
  15. Sindaiann Augur

    Totally agree. Bard dicho got smoked. RIP
    Brohg likes this.
  16. strongbus Augur

    the only difference between what they did to the ench spell and bard song was they fixed a few bugs with the bard song.

    Both ench and bard song/spell did the same thing in different ways they increased adps and gave some mana back. They changed both by increasing the amount of mana/end each cost and increasing the amount of adps it gives. But lowering the amount of mana they return.

    that was the only thing they did to the song/spell for balance issues.

    the 2 bug fixes have nothing to do with balance issues.

    1st bug not all bard song where using end. you had to have that amount to cast it but didn't use it form your end pool. They fix this.

    2nd the song like the ench spell was ment to hit each player in group only once per cast. But unlike the ench spell the bard song was hitting each person once for each member in the group. so a full group of 6 people got hit 6 times so at 4.8k x 6 hits each they got bout 30k a cast instead of just the 4.8k they were ment to get.

    Now for balance its the way they want it. Now if because of the 2 bug fixes it make the song worth casting is another story.
  17. Zalamyr Augur

    There's no story. It's not worth casting. The adps it adds would have been irrelevant 8 expansions ago, let alone now.
    Vrinda and Hellboy007 like this.
  18. Kutsuu Augur

    "Fixed a few bugs" is a huge understatement, and a pathetic attempt to minimize my points. Again, fixing those bugs was a major change to the mechanics of the skill and they should have assessed those changes before making further adjustments to the skill.

    I guess I should take it that you're an enchanter main who is happy to see Bards getting a raw deal. At least some people are happy with the change!
  19. strongbus Augur

    Yes I main a ench but no i am not happy to see bard take it this hard. I know how it feels 1st they also hit a ench mana dot just as bad. so its nothing like it use to be. 2nd I use to main a necro before they did the last round of nerf on them.

    Just seeing thing form a different view. I have never seen bug fixes and balance things as being the same.

    They looked at both ench spell and bard song and decided that they both gave to much mana back. So they decide to change that. They made changes to how much to the base amount of each and then gave more adps to make up for it. As well as increase the mana cost for ench and end cost for bards.

    When they balance out changes to spells/songs/etc they go on what the base amount of the spell/song is and what it was designed to do. Not what it is doing based on bugs.

    I understand were you are coming form. Your saying by fixing the bugs that they should have left the song alone to see how it worked before changing the based stats. Why I can agree with you that would have been a nice thing to do. The fact of the matter is that is not what happened and will happen.
  20. bbanz Elder

    They balanced the bard song such that there's no point in using it. Beastlords and enchanters have replaced bards when it comes to ADPS and the gap has now widen further.

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