Test Update 08/12/2014 - Pet Changes Round 4

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Aristo, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. Daegun Augur

    Argin-Hiz: Group geared warrior (8240 unbuffed ac)

    Methods: Same as for Sk (bard was present with same songs). Warrior did pulling. Discs were cycled. Anytime final stand was not running, steadfast defense was up. Field guardian was kept up. Brace for impact and Blade guardian were also kept up. Buffed ac (for when last stand was not available) was 10239ac with full t1 group gear. Cerulean thumper + 5dmg/rune augment in primary.

    Non group geared possessed by this warrior: Ancient cloak of flames, Crested mistmoore ring x2


    First fight: NTTB + shield prof + all of the above
    Second fight: Final stand + all of the above
    Third fight: NTTB back up + shield prof + all of the above
    The rest: Shield prof

    At the end ... Siddar accidentally trained a 2nd mob on me. You can clearly see where it rose.

    Average incoming dps: 4140

    1st fight: 2359dps
    2nd fight 3880dps
    3rd fight: 2620dps

    Single target fights:
    *Baseline Warrior (group gear) with shield prof on: ~5400 incoming dps per mob averaged over several fights with Brace for Impact in the background, field guardian ac, aura ac, and steadfast defense
    *Group Warrior Best intelligent use (staggering NTTB/defensive): 2620
    *Baseline SK (group gear): 8000-9000 per mob - add in their self healing potential
    *Group SK best intelligent use: 5448dps + self healing that for short bursts is insane
    *Baseline average EM15 necro with short-reuse abilities: 3712
    *Best attention to Detail EM 15 necro with short reuse abilities: 2792 + backup healing if needed

    Getting a baseline afk parse on EM15 necro pet in A-Hiz right now to see what the base per-target incoming dps is (since runes/blocks/etc don't scale up linearly on multiple pulls).
  2. Siddar Augur

    Need to nerf tanks AE agro because that snake was rooted no where close to you but you built so much agro it was 90% dead before I could get agro back.
    Linoleum likes this.
  3. Behelit Augur

    Yes but now show the healing tab for these fights. There's absolutely no reason for an SK to need 2 clerics for grp trash especially if they have a bard to increase their passive healing, or if the bard was signing the correct songs.You don't see how its relevant to look at a knights self-healing when discussing the larger picture of how well they tank comparatively to a non-healing counterpart? Obviously their self healing comes at a price of taking more damage than a "tank" that can't self heal, and since certain pets have been given the distinction of "warrior" pets I think its feasible that they would take less damage than a knight capable of self healing.

    Also why would you use mage gear for the Necro pet parse? Idk about you but I dont always have mage gear readily available in the baz for my Necro alt when I go to play him, its not something that can be considered "baseline" for the pet. It would be the equivalent of getting every priest buff possible for the SK (shining for stun procs, fatigue for slow procs, reptile for -atk debuff + heals) and then passing that off as the baseline for a group SK.
  4. Daegun Augur

    Because mage summoned gear is so ubiquitous that balancing pets in the absence of it would lead to serious balance problems between pets. If mage earth pet is supposed to be the best, but necro/bst pets are balanced without the pet gear in mind ... well now you've got the problem where a mage pet on summon is weaker than the beastlord/necro pet with summoned gear that on most servers can be parcel delivered for under 200 plat.

    If knights are balanced around taking more total damage (and they are balanced thus) because of their self heal potential ... how then should pets be balanced when incorporating their pet heal potential?

    I'm glad you agree with me, even if you don't necessarily realize you're agreeing with me ;)

    After it aggro'd my bard I blew 2 aggro "pets" and 3 targettable aggro abilities - beyond that it was rune proc aggro.
  5. Behelit Augur

    That doesnt have to be the case at all, you're just assuming it would be for the sake of why your using pet gear to skew parses. Unless there's been some Dev provided data as to the base AC values and stats of the pets?

    If Mage Earth Pet has 4600 ac (random hypothetical), and Necro + Beast warrior pet start out at 3250 + 3500 and pet gear adds 634, the Mage Earth Pet would still have higher ac albeit the gap would close significantly. The point is you using pure speculation to frame your parses. If you want to run baseline parses dont use pet gear, if anything that may be something that needs to be looked at as well is the impact of pet gear and decreasing its effectiveness to increase the baseline of the pets (and thus making tuning a lot easier).

    The pet heal should be treated as an activated heal with a resource cost as spell healing is treated with SK's, however the SK has the extra advantage of passive healing that comes purely through DPSing.

    I'm glad you took the time to respond without providing that healing parse though.
    menown and Gyurika Godofwar like this.
  6. Necromonious Augur

    It's only a matter of time before the math comes out that shows that the mage spell pet heal is completely terrible

    Aegis will always be preferable even with a longer cast because it prevents much more damage, same with groundswell. Then there's AA's which can be used. I would guess (havent tested extensively obviously) that even using a rumbling servant after you've blown both runes is STILL optimal to using the pet heal, unless you believe there is zero chance it will steal aggro. 2.6 second cast for a 28k non-crit? ugh

    It's crap. It's not completely useless, but it's still crap
    Linoleum and Gyurika Godofwar like this.
  7. Siddar Augur

    Aegis is easy to put values on for a given mob take minimum hit x 8 as minimum prevented, take maximum hit x 8 as maximum prevented, and average hits x 8 as average value of damage prevented per cast.

    My guess is versus argin hiz mobs minimum is around the same as a non crit heal, while maximum is around double a crit heal, arond average is going to be is roughly equal to a crit heal.

    Sense its minimum value means pet was taking very little damage the downside of minimum damage steak is very low the reverse is also true in that if your pet would have taken max damage hits then aegis would have healed more then a crit heal could have.

    The result is Aegis is always a better choice then heal if its off cool down. heal is for spamming constantly are placing in a weave where you use heal every 3-4 casts and go freaking insane from having to re-target mob over and over again. Aegis also scales with npc power in that the harder the mob hits the more damage it will block and its advantage over heal will increase as a result.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  8. Forcallen Augur

    You can't just trivially add mage gear to pets that 90% of the time don't have it and say look they parse reasonable. Its like 600AC, 4K hps, 80 + to all stats and a ton of mod 2's. Pets die, mages aren't around, mages toss you one set of weapons/armor and leave. Its not reasonable to expect all pets have full gear verse trash. Its part of the problem for necro and beast lord pets. What started as bonuses for mages here or there has showed up everywhere in every facet to pet stuff turning into a tuning issue.
    menown and Behelit like this.
  9. Inga Elder

    So... in EM15 necro parse, you used Slow and level 100 necro is dealing 18k DPS, and it is baseline average?
    Did you use any slow type spell in group shadowknight/warrior parse?

    Phantasmal Ward and Aegis of Kildrukaun spell/AA are long recast time, so If the mob is slowed, pet will avoid more.
    Beastlord has short-reuse Slow spell. What is baseline average of BST pet for you?

    You are joking?
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  10. Atnusen New Member

    So an intelligently played warrior beats a necro warrior pet hands down. The necro warrior pet beats the mage earth pet hands down. Yet somehow the mage earth pet is still OP and a threat to group warriors.
  11. BigJimSlade New Member

    The mage pet gets enhanced from the gear, as well as the focus. If you want the true baseline for the pet, then you have to parse without the utility.
    I am having trouble with the avg incoming dmg, I see:
    1st fight: 2359dps
    2nd fight 3880dps
    3rd fight: 2620dps
    avg. 4140
    I find that impossible, you cannot average an amount greater than the largest (3880).
    These average out to be 2953, however if you want to average the 6k fight in it becomes 3715 (rounded up for you). It looks from the data though, that shield prof was the only factor in that fight.
    I just noticed it says ~6k, then you go on to say 5400 below that. If that is the case then the parse is actually 3565 incoming dps and not 3715, as previously stated.
    sorry for the edit, this is in response to Argin-Hiz: Group geared warrior (8240 unbuffed ac)
  12. BigJimSlade New Member

    ok, I see what you did there. The "train" fight was used to inflate the incoming dps...good show.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  13. Krag Lorekeeper

    These parses are cracking me up. All kinds of different factors in every test, depending on the desired outcome. Doesn't really matter, I'd imagine that pets are pretty much where they are going to end up at this point. Probably tweak them up a little like they have been doing, but hoping that the servant pets get some even bigger love still.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  14. ~Mills~ Augur

    Hopefully the devs see past it as most people following him don't. There is a reason most other people parsing stuff see one thing then he jumps in and shows another much more toned down version. Pet armor, slowed, unslowed, vie's, self healing, duration, mob, zone, attention to pet, is the tank afk, use of abilities, etc all change based on which individual point he wants to prove wrong that day with a parse.
    Mintalie and Gyurika Godofwar like this.
  15. Khauruk Augur

    Most people (well, mages and necros mainly) are seeing a conspiracy on his part that isn't there, and seeing flaws in the data that aren't there.

    His parses are quite reasonable and transparent, and showing accurately the state of the game.
  16. menown Augur

    I've sent parse data to Aristo already. They also show accurately the state of the game. However, my analysis is quite different than Daeguns. I don't use mage armor for starters because I honestly never have a mage around to give it to me. I also showed comparisons of the same mob having and not having necro slow.
  17. ~Mills~ Augur

    We can agree to disagree then but.... constantly changing variables and only showing certain aspects one a time leads to biased or framed data. Most people don't understand that at all and its very apparent in this thread.
  18. Zentara Augur

    So first you guys complain when he provides parses with absolutely no variables (the pure passive mitigation thread) and claim "that's not how we play our pet class/that's not how a tank does things".

    And THEN you complain when he plays each class as it would be played by an average-to-good player, and complain that he's "constantly changing variables" and "only showing certain aspects"?

    Give me a break.
    SaderakhBertox, Riou and Delbaeth like this.
  19. ~Mills~ Augur

    Yes, first he shows one aspect of tanking, an afk pet vs an afk tank which shows one true aspect related to DI but totally ignores all the other factors that make that single point mean nothing. Pets are not better than tanks at tanking unless the tank is awful, severely undergeared or there is some PC only effect coming into play.

    Later he shows random mobs in the entry point of the expansion with variables changing like raid focus for this but group focus for that, this mob slowed but this one not. This ability ignored but this one used. And says look its tuned properly now keep pets this way.

    He then recently shows some pets with full support of the owner, with major support from other classes and with the mob slowed. Then compares it to warrior with some outside support which he chose randomly but is basically nil, using some of his stuff but not all, all while the mobs are unslowed. Totally ignores self healing and stuns in others when it comes to knights. And says, see look at this one factor he wants to point out to everyone (he even has shiney ms paint skills to highlight it for us). That is totally impacted either entirely or in part by the variables he either excluded for one side or only implemented partially. In this case a few dps boosts from a bard to the tanks which does =/= 600 raw ac, host of mod 2's from pet gear and slowed mobs for pets. He knows this. And as BigJim points out a lot of his numbers are off.
  20. Khauruk Augur

    Pets are going to be tuned around available armor. It is simply the way that things are.

    Go to the bazaar, and as you buy it parcel it to yourself. You can keep practically unlimited unfolded bags of armor, etc, in your parcel box.

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