Test Update 08/12/2014 - Pet Changes Round 4

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Aristo, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. Sheex Augur

    Mercs are by definition bad healers. Pair a good knight with a real healer and they don't have to work anywhere near as hard to stay alive, either.

    But because of how well pets have mitigated passively up to this point, the deficiencies of bad merc healers would be disproportionally less of an issue on pets and that's part of what started this whole fiasco imo. (Dev's choice of language: "better survivability").
  2. Sheex Augur

    Thanks for the random generalizations. We're either with you, or we're jealous or incompetent. Nice.

    I haven't really seen them in practice firsthand, yet, so not really for or against at this point, but can see why some folks feel they're necessary.

    The overwhelming wuah against anyone speaking any dissent whatsoever to the "revert all these changes they're completely unnecessary and oppressive" line compels me to express a differing opinion. Pet classes are very capable, and that's good. They're likely to remain very capable, and that's also good. The devs are taking feedback and rolling changes out over time, so the sky isn't falling.
  3. strongbus Augur

    never said it was all tanks. just the ones i know in game or have heard bragging in /general.

    form what i see on these boards it more of you guys think its not fair that we don't have to help the merc out in the same way a tank has to help his/her out. But us pet classes think it is fair. Everyone is ok to have their thoughts on stuff. The only thing that is important is what the dervs think.

    My biggest issue with the changes are as a necro my war pet was the weakest anyways and still is. But at lest it was still strong enough that if a slow cast didn't take or I got distracted for a min by kids/wife/etc my merc could still keep it up for a bit on a mob.(1v1 trash mob that is 1v2 or named and I knew it was over and am fine with that) On test I let slow wear off to test what would happen in a fight if I got distract. My pet was dead with in sec. But the same test with a merc healer and merc tank and the healer keep the merc up np. This is my biggest problem. I have no issues with my pet not being as good as a pc tank. But at lest make it as good as a tank merc.
  4. Sheex Augur

    "Fair" is incredibly subjective, so no real point in going down that road. A ranger would probably say it's fair that they should tank like a warrior and dps like a rogue. This is why we have devs to design the game and we don't do it via polls. Pet classes weren't exactly hurting before these changes, eh?

    And I completely agree about nec pets. They aren't releasing content for kiting much these days, you should be able to straight up tank things with a pet and not have to revert to spamming swarms or very unorthodox methods. They should tune all 3 separately as the changes impact each of the main pet classes in extremely different ways.
  5. Numzan Augur

    I am still LOL

    pretty much what I said in post1 at approx. thread 1
    -just wish they would nerf the devs now :)
  6. Daegun Augur

    I continue to be confused why you had a such hard time putting better numbers up. I went back out today for a few more runs. Solo dps with a healer merc continues to bounce around between high 17k and low 20k.

    So I wanted to go a little bit further; This time I bagged the mercenary and just played tank/cleric/dps all in one. Even covering additional duties and with significantly worse gear than you I got pretty close to your damage output.


    I ended the fight at 83% mana, focused paragon was up again by the end of the fight. Buffs were standard afk guild lobby buffs plus my own and gear clicks. Even covering all healing duties, still managed to put 11.5k dps on the board. Unfortunately for several of my damaging spell casts I forgot to re-target the mob after healing the pet - without this, dps output would have been higher.

    The difference between total damage taken by warder and heals attributed to Pseudomonas comes from Melioration heal over time and the promised line.
  7. Zentara Augur

    From a tank's perspective, the "big problem here seems to be people not considering that" a tank doesn't carry around a dps class in their pocket like the pet classes carry a tank around in their pocket.

    It takes 3 roles to molo: tank, heal, dps.

    One Tank player can fill two of those roles, but not the third: we can have a dps merc and die to no heals, or we can have heals but no dps to kill the mob.

    On the other hand, a mage can have the pet cover the tank requirement, a healer merc to cover the heal requirement, and handle the dps requirement on their own...all with one active player.

    All *any* tank that has participated in this thread reasonably (and yes, I've read every post, in not only this thread but every other one related to pets as well) has said is that there is a balance issue when pet classes are able to fulfill all three requirements for a molo scenario with such great effectiveness when no other classes can.

    We're all actually pretty much ok with pet classes being able to meet all 3 roles, you are after all "soloing classes". Where we want to draw the line is when you can meet all 3 roles on end game group content, finish full progression without ever relying on another class as some mages appear to want, and also be able to take down end game named to boot.

    Ultimately, the core issue between the various sides in this issue is a matter of definition: to what level should a "solo class" be able to perform? Sony is staying out of that question unfortunately (although I understand why--set a bar and then *every* player will feel entitled to meeting it), but without that baseline to shoot for, there can't be any large scale agreement.
    Zoran likes this.
  8. Schadenfreude Augur

    Get them to molo Master Sage Lowenn again and then post the video please.
  9. ~Mills~ Augur

    First only a warrior has that issue, in group content a pally or sk can serve the roles of healer and tank simultaneously with only the need to use a wizard merc for more dps. Its just not in every zone or every mob depending on their gear. But they can molo quite effectively and have been able to do such since day one as a class that can solo sometimes. Now a warrior from day one and in its description says basically must always be in a group to function thats the choice you made. You don't get to know tare down pet classes which have always been solo friendly and even prior to mercs had a tank/dps/healer class in one. Because you don't like just being a tank with a healer merc that takes forever to kill mobs.

    Thats the core issue shown in this thread. First that pet DI was broken in regards to pets not taking high DI rolls. Then it turned into let me get my frustration of class choice out and claim pets are better then tanks so nerf them more, I can't molo so they shouldn't be able to either nerf them more, I don't like that pet classes can play 3 or 4 class roles at once with a merc (which they have been able to do since 1999). Thats envy and class hate not betterment for the game.
  10. Nylrem Augur

    I understand why tanks are upset.

    However, they're upset about things that, if they've ever grouped with a good magician in the last 16 years, have been the way they are for a very long time.

    Pets have almost always been able to tank 1 mob at a time VERY well, especially with high pet focuses.

    Pets take less incoming damage vs 1 mob at a time than tanks, at any time except when a tank is using everything they have to mitigate/avoid damage.

    Before mercs though, it was more of a race, can the magician out dps the hp loss of the pet on the mob, and kill the mob before the pet dies. With the addition of the healer merc, the magician class instantly became 'easy mode'. There was no problem out dpsing the hp loss of a pet any more, since the merc took care of that.

    Now, current day, Live tank pets do out tank knights vs raid mobs, when it's required for extended periods. I've seen this as a healer. My earth pet requires much less healing (over an extended time) than a very well played knight, when offtanking a bixie2 raid bee, as an example. This is a fact. I believe it's possibly due to real tanks not being able to block/riposte/parry raid mobs as much, or the higher attack values of raid mobs, or something similar. But, it is a fact, current magician raid focused earth pets do out tank knights on 1 vs 1 raid mobs.

    I often group with one of the best if not the best played paladin on our server quite a lot. Versus group content, there is absolutely no comparison of my pet versus him. He will tank circles around my pet, tanking 5 mobs while doing it.

    Is it fair that my pet can out tank him vs raid mobs? Probably not, at least not for very many. There's a fix for that though, if devs don't want pet tanking mobs in raids. See PoWar.

    Lord of Flies, I would have assumed you could tell the semi-sarcasm in my post about transferring half my dps to pet, however, that seems like it would satisfy some of the anti-pet community, if our earth pet continued to have it's sad DPS, but half our 'max' dps was then changed to DPS pets.

    It seems to me their current cry is not how well the pet tanks now... but rather that we can dps well while the pet tanks and the cleric merc heals. Personally, I would rather tanks ask for improved dps for themselves to match our sustained. I think a tank should be able to sustain 30-35k dps while tanking. That's just me I guess though.

    However, you should know that there are a great many magicians that just suck. Probably a higher percentage than any other class (well, maybe raiding necros - I still continuously see 90% or so of those that continue to use fast dots and are too lazy to swap spellsets to use a 16 or more dot rotation). Transferring half our DPS to pets would tremendously help them out, the ones that are too inept to figure out or too unwilling to use multibinding, change spellsets to current situations, and too scared/hardheaded to use rains/salvo.

    Also, Flies, if water pet did 45k dps by itself, then situations like trash clearing, the waves in like WK1, etc, would be so much easier for many magicians. Most guilds do not single tank and AE those waves, so rains are verboten during many parts of some events, for many guilds. Transferring half of a max DPS magician's DPS to a pet would be very beneficial in many more circumstances than leaving it as spell damage. Even a crappy magician would sustain good dps in groups, as long as they sicced pet well :)

    If pets tanking too well right now is an issue though, super AFK pet dps would be 100 times more of an issue, with other DPS classes.
  11. Krag Lorekeeper

    No molo means solo with a merc. It takes 3 roles to efficiently molo. I can molo all day with my SK, but I can get better exp in a group.

    So a pet class is more efficient with a merc healers. A true SOLO class, like a necro is more efficient without a merc. I root/rot incredible exp with my necro and I don't need a tank or merc to do it. Is that fair?? Shouldn't every class be able to solo then?? It has been like this for 15 years!!!!!! All of a sudden you think its not fair? Some class MOLO and SOLO better than others. Some classes shine more in groups. Some shine more when CC is needed. Some shine more against extremely hard raid bosses. ALL CLASSES ARE NOT EQUAL IN ALL SITUATIONS!! Balance does not mean every class can do the same thing equally. It means every class has somewhat equal use, when every scenario is factored in. Every class should shine in one area, for mages it is being efficient when moloing.
  12. strongbus Augur

    All 3 pet classes have been always been able to do end game content.

    And no pet class should say we never need to help the merc out. Name fights are a giving we have to help out the mercs. 1v2+ we know we need to help out the pets(at lest till we can get the add(s) locked down or dead).

    Please note the following is just my thoughts based on what I have read.

    The biggest difference between what pet classes and tanks think is balanced for this issues seem to fall in 3 areas.(and please if I get something wrong correct me)

    1st. in 1v1 trash fights what con mobs should we have to help support our pets with heals or runes. For yellow and red con mobs for the most both group agree. Its the even con and below that seem to be where the disagreement is. Tanks seem to think we should have to help out even on these and pet class think we shouldn't

    2nd. Named fights. Should pet classes be able to molo all names or none or just the weak con names of the current content.

    3rd. 1v2+ fights. How many should we be able to tank at once(personal I think 1v2 is ok anymore then that is pushing it). With the other part being how long should we have to get some sort of cc off. Lets say for example mobs in cotf t2 hit for a avg of 9.5k damage and can land a hit ever 2 sec. As a necro my aa rune will only take 18.9k damage before its gone. So if I have 2 mobs on me that is bout 2 sec of time(with having 28 sec before I can reuse it) to do something. My spell rune will take bout 43k of damage before its gone. So that bout 6 sec of time(having bout 12 sec before I can reuse it). If a mob can be rooted. That is enough time for me to get punt root off and be back to a 1v1 fight. If the mob can't be rooted then I have to hope that is enough time to get pet fort(if up) off or get some swarm pets on the mob and get my pet back off.
  13. Zoran Journeyman

    This is revisionist history to claim mages were excellent soloers for 15 years. Those making this claim either didn't play a mage in early EQ or are just lying. Mage pets sucked at launch, Kunark, Velious, Luclin, PoP, LoY, GoD, and OoW. During Kunark->Luclin their epic pet was excellent, if they had it, but invising yourself or zoning unsummoned your pet and summoning the epic pet had a cooldown. When PoP came out the damage tables changed drastically and the epic pet had outlived its time, so 100% of mage pets went back to being weak. They didn't have mercenaries the entire time.

    That's 4 years since release. Mercenaries were added in SoD, less than 6 years ago, changing the course of what mages could accomplish without a group.

    Stop making this bogus assertion about mages being masters of soloing for the lifespan of EverQuest. Necromancers have been effective soloers for 15 years, not mages. Druids, wizards, and rangers followed necromancers in solo efficacy. The important factor for all these classes was kiting to avoid taking damage because healing that damage was either impossible or inefficient. Show me the mage kite.
  14. Romen Lorekeeper

    I have played a mage since original EQ and I beg to disagree with you - mages were pretty effective soloing up until PoP, at least against even con and lower mobs. Necros used to be much better at higher than even con because of kiting. But a mage could burn down blues far faster than any other class solo. With PoP they mobs were just too tough for our pets to be able to effectively tank them, particularly with our crappy heals.
  15. Krag Lorekeeper

    The mage epic pet was sick!! I used to watch mages solo in karnors with that thing, like my paladin could only dream about. Sick damage shield, way more dps and better tank then my paladin was, no question. My 50 necro pet, with fine steel daggers, before Kunark, could beat a warrior in a duel by itself, no problem. I was chasing a top geared warrior around lower guk with my pet, making him beg me to pull it off him lol. Mercs just added the missing link that allowed mages to efficiently kill without needing a group. There were a few lulls in pet power, but they were very powerful a lot more than not.
  16. Roundup New Member

    Have to disagree here. Soloing with a pet was great in early eq, used the fire pet with the focus from najena and it was a monster. Never had my epic during Kunark but still soloed using earth pet and chaining him and reclaiming him, before they nerfed that it was great solo exp. There was a post on the old mage tower involving kiting also, forget how it went exactly, pet had velocity on it though and may have involved earth pet rooting mob and mage keeping distance and nuking to break root and then run until mob rooted again. Old tower posts are gone now so cant find it but it had been done.
  17. Lord of Flies New Member

    See this is what I don't get, you say you're being semi sarcastic but then go back to suggesting pet be transferred half the DPS of the Mage. Also, I want to point out if half of your dps is only 45k, you are doing something very wrong.

    You're saying that it would make it easier if the pet was basically on burn all day every day, that's not right at all. I could see just about every class having a problem with this, including real Magician's who have no problem throwing down DPS. It's actually kind of insulting, I really don't see the sarcasm in your words but I do hope it's there..

    As for pets not being a viable tank since day 1..I'm not sure who said this, but I don't think they actually paid attention to Mages since day 1. This is something that really isn't disputed because it's a known fact, to say otherwise is just horse****. They've always been a good alternative for a tank.

    To the point, tanks are upset pet classes have DPS, tanks and heals( pet heals )..Well first off, to even compare them shows class envy, doesn't matter what you say, how you word it, that is the fact of the matter.

    If a Warrior does any type of disc they will be out tanking a pet easily, on multiple mobs this is even more so.

    This thread has gone from data to just a lynch mob attacking mages/pet classes and what they can do, because their jealous they can't do that.

    It needs to stop, you aren't going to get your way and it's just clogging this thread for real data to help the devs decided on what they want for their final changes, they've been pushing pets upwards EACH change so it's obvious where they see pets, they want them as viable tanks in CURRENT content, but they want the pet classes to have to throw a heal, here and a rune there..This is what I take away from the changes. ( I still stand by what I said, trash mobs should need no support with a cleric in group, against a named I say maybe 20% support, vs a named and an add, obviously more, if not totally destroying the pet at that time )

    As for whoever asked for the SK video, I won't be on today as it's one of my family members birthday but I'll see if one of my buddies would be up to try it, I also never said I was 100% sure on the Master Sage, however just about all the rest I'm 100% sure he was able to molo. Which even if he couldn't molo master sage means nothing as he's not a real dps class, so of course a pet class would have an easier time due to our DPS( if you're trying to compare a pet class soloing to a tank class) . To say that's not fair is just being envious of what someone can do that you can't.

    I'll say it again, tanks are tanks, they are not designed to be DPS. They are mostly designed for groups ( excluding SK's, as they have always had solo options ). Lets not forget that Warriors and Pallies for the longest time couldn't solo before mercs basically at all due to the DPS they had. So now you can but you see pet classes doing so much more, like we always could, and you get jealous..How is that right?

    Taking into consideration how the devs are dealing with this, they wanted pets to get hit with the higher DI's which is accomplished, but they also wanted them to be able to tank current content, which is why they keep pushing them upwards. To argue they shouldn't be able to do that is arguing with the designers of EQ, I really don't think you'll win.

    The class envy really needs to stop, it's getting out of hand and for no reason. DI has been fixed, why the lynch mob and the stoning? It's like anytime a pet class comes here to defend their pet after being fixed and give input on how it handled they are attacked. Not cool guys, we are a community, start acting like it.

    I'm out for the day, I hope you guys really reflect on what I said.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  18. Unsunghero Elder

    Class envy will never stop. I don't have a problem with class envy, its non-practical class envy that annoys me. Being jealous of being able to molo out-dated content for ZERO possible upgrades is hilarious to me. Molo'ing last tier's content serves no practical purpose, people do it just to be able to brag about it. And people get more jealous of THAT, than any other aspect of this game. Not what a class can do on raids. Not what a class can do in full player groups in T2 zones.

    It is what a class can do, alone, in a zone where next to NO character progression is possible....THAT is what really matters in everquest. Warriors being absolutely mandatory for raid success? Bah. Mages molo'ing last tier? RIOTS
  19. Daegun Augur

    Argin-Hiz with EM15 necro pet molo:

    Pet had basic mage summoned gear, buffs included only what I and my merc could give both it and myself and I settled into a lazy rhythm of killing things. No deaths, pet didn't really get close to dying.

    Even cons and dark blues:
    rose viper
    murkweb spider
    timber wolf


    No burns or trying to min/max, just laid back killing. I cast my actual pet heal once in the 15 minutes. In retrospect this was not necessary, I was being overly cautious as it was my first time in the zone. Phantasmal ward was kept up on pet as were cascading and aegis. Spell lineup was not optimized for fast kills, longer more efficient dots only. I found myself still with a good 25% or more downtime. Swapping out longer higher efficiency dots for faster, less efficient dots with more upkeep/attention would have negated this 25% downtime standing around with nothing to do and increased kill speed - but my goal was to see how well these pets stood up to final tier content.

    Total Avoidance averaged across all bites/hits (different mobs): 59.52%
    Average incoming dps: 3712
    Highest incoming dps: 4762 (I neglected to see that slow resisted - unslowed fight)
    Lowest incomign dps: 2792
    My total dps: 17948dps - I will readily admit this quite a bit lower than I could manage with a more appropriately planned spell lineup.

    This was my first trip into the zone, not sure what to expect ... but I was expecting something much harder than it actually was.
    In global difficulty:
    -mobs have about 300-500k more hit points.
    -higher innate attack, the DI spread is shifted with mildly greater expression of upper DIs
    -minimum hit %'s still range in the 42-44% any given fight for necro warrior pet EM15
    -maximum hit is between 1 and 2k higher depending on mob type
  20. Daegun Augur

    Argin-Hiz round two; the group geared shadowknight.

    Methods: bard + shadowknight with 2 reactive cleric mercs. Songs used: Aria of Va'Ker, War March, Mana regen x 2 (Salarra/Chorus) and Aura of Salarra. Bard was brought to feed mana to cleric mercs and to add a bit of afk autoattack dps to keep the kills moving.

    Group geared shadowknight (magelo below), fully self buffed with spells/clicks and with bard songs and cleric merc buffs. No other buffs/support used. SK using shield with 1hander with double rune procs. The goal was to just pull stuff and kill it, stay alive etc. All major discs were used at least once. Grelleth's Carapace was used twice. Final fight was still 1-2 minutes away until next disc could be used.


    Incoming dps:
    Fight one: 5702dps
    Fight two: 5448dps
    Fight three: 5620dps
    Fight four: 6457dps
    Fight five: 7283dps
    Fight six: 8929dps

    There were no discs available for fights 5 and 6.

    DI spread is ugly because:
    1) double rune proc weapon
    2) mercenary cleric vie
    3) 3 different discs with variable DIs each
    4) different mob types with their own individual hit tables.

    Just eyeballing it though, quite easy to compare/contrast with the EM15 necro pet.

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