Test Update 08/12/15

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Hludwolf, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. ~Mills~ Augur


    Are you really going to claim that this change makes melee less reliable on adps? It does nothing to free you from it and only serves to highlight your performance further while under that adps.

    I have seen quite a few parses from test already. Showing the impacts to overall output from real in game play. Burst is going up at least 15% for melee burst classes, higher in situations or for some classes. This not only boosts your overall sustained but it also reduces the fight duration as well. That's a double whammy to sustained classes. You then get to factor in at least a 30% increase to sustained, higher in some situations or for some classes. This also reduces the fight duration essentially making it a triple hit to value of a sustained class. Or a class that can't offer your burst capabilities and only now offers marginally better sustained but only after to much time passes.
  2. ~Mills~ Augur

    I am not sure which side of the coin you are on but....

    But thats exactly what some dps classes are doing. They are claiming its ok to dominate every regard to dps. Group, raid, long or short duration. Just because they have purposely refused adding more dimension or utility to their class when it was offered. That breaks any chance to balance dps because of how many classes are basically just dps classes. Those classes lacking utility or dimensino should be the ones who get other non dps stuff added make them a bit more well rounded. You then accept that there are 6 main dps classes that should serve to fill for each to varying degrees without being clones. And there are 2 other dps classes which offer lessor dps but other benefits alongside that lower overall dps.

    Its an extreme example but there is basically no point to other dps classes in a raid outside of a token 1-2 if three dps classes dominate every facet. Burst is highly valuable in many settings even if current raids don't have epeen burst events that highlight it. See many of the Arx events were burning through this phase or killing these adds quickly is what the event is all about, even if the overall parse doesn't reflect that importance. So you can't give the classes that have 100% or more burst then others sustained that is close enough to the sustained classes. Or very quickly it gets to the point of sustained classes or weaker burst classes being replaced by them as most events won't last long enough for it to get to the point of them taking over or it really doesn't matter as the part that mattered was how well you burned through this 60 second phase before your tanks and healers died.

    See the 8 man rogue and zerker teams that some guilds had or will now use again. Its just as bad as guilds running 8 wizards. There should be a reason for a guild to carry 3-4 of every dps class always. Recruitment and lack of players not withstanding in which case you might carry a bunch of one dps class simply because you didn't have much choice. Not well, 1-2 of this class is all we need so we can then get 8 of these 3 classes that serves that function much better.

    One class doing it all is bad and classes doing 400K when only 3 can and then doing 60k+ sustained indefinitely which is at or just below what others can do at certain times means those 3 exceed the benefit others provide in most situations.
  3. Coruth Augur

    First Disclaimer: Differences in Skill are currently bigger than Differences in Class. If your guild has a "Great" Monk but "Bad" Rogues you will think Monks are fine. However, if you looked at the same Great Monk against a Great Rogue, you'd be saying the gap is too wide.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ideally: I'd like to see Rogue/Zerk > Monk > Ranger > Beast

    Currently I tend to see: Rogue/Zerg > Beast > Monk/Ranger

    With these changes the gaps are going to widen and I'd probably advocate moving the Ranger/Monk up to 74 and Beast down to 66.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First, IMO: Beast should be last among the 6 classes. They offer the most ADPS and most roster flexibility.

    If you were building a Melee DPS group, your three staples would be Shm, Bard, Beast + 3 of others. Leaving 4 classes for 3 spots.

    If you were building a mid-maxed DPS group, you'd probably expand that line up to Shm Bard Beast Zerk Rogue + Monk/Ranger.

    Not to mention the fact that if your roster was overly melee heavy and you didn't have enough bards/shm a Beast will fit okay into a Mage group with a Chanter. (Rangers would be 2nd choice to fit into caster)

    But it really comes down to if a Beast can do a Monks DPS then why have a Monk. Bst can heal (to counter mend), AE Paragon, and Group Natures Fury.
    Schadenfreude likes this.
  4. toxicsmell New Member

    so any plans to restore test exp bonus back to our normal rate instead of live rate???? been messed up since last reboot it seems everyone on is complaining.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  5. kizant Augur

    I'm on the side that prefers greater distinction between classes. It's one of the few things that EQ has/had done well which sets it apart from other similar games. Daybreak doesn't seem afraid to make significant changes so maybe now is the time to get those old useless ability lines removed or replaced and address things properly. I'd even be for removing useful ability lines if a class received it when it never made any sense and it was just Sony taking the lazy way out to make people happy.
  6. Taosunj New Member

    After this patch Test Exp is Broke.. 100% exp pot in Valley at 96 and not even getting 1% exp per kill with just myself and merc.. Definitly not Regular test exp or the Double exp we are suppose to get for the weekend
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  7. Behelit Augur

    I didnt see anyone mention lessening the reliance on adps via this change before you. The patch notes clearly state the intent is lower the discrepency between burst + sustained for melee. That said its missing that mark slightly as not all burn discs revolve around hit-dmg mods, although it is closing the gap a bit.

    This assertion of classes rejecting utility is ridiculous. On more than several occasions throughout the past 4 expansion betas, Zerkers have asked for increased viability of ADPS (upgrades to Warcry to competitive/relevant levels of HHE on par with or superior to bard's QT), expanded stun skills/aa, self-healing via weapon-leech, positioning tools, among a myriad of other seemingly random but useful non-dps requests.

    The reality of the situation is none of those things had/have a chance to be implemented for the class because the Devs feel it "doesnt fit in line with the class". They in turn offer new utility like a 4 sec stun on a 2min recast (woohoo 3% uptime stun), or a single-target root for 6sec that has a bugged recourse that snares/dots the Zerker/tank.

    The line between "useful" and "useless" utility is the problem, of course classes reject the idea of poorly tuned utility abilities. That doesn't mean that they only want dps, it means given the options of minimal dps increases or useless utility they take the dps option as it still adds up whereas a useless utility is never upgraded/often completely ignored.

    If Zerkers were offered something more substaintial like an AE stun up to lvl 108 for 4sec on a 18sec recast they wouldnt refuse that. Or a meaningful way to self heal (preferably only in combat either lifetap/weapon leech or a combat-restricted mend), we'd take that in an instant at the cost of the normal dps increases. But unless things this beta go radically different than the past 4 expansions, I dont imagine Zerkers will see any sort of utility.

    TLDR: it would appear the Devs dont want Zerkers to have any sort of remotely powerful utility, that became very clear when they decided to completely kill off our role as HHE adps provider. its not like we can control that either so you should be complaining about the Devs not us players.
    Brogett likes this.
  8. Fenudir Augur

    Conditionally. We've asked for improvements in personal ADPS to shrink the divide between supported and non-supported dps. Very few if any of us have asked for an improved War Cry. If we wanted to be a ADPS class, we'd have rolled one.

    Yes, we would. It's a "utility" that would then be held against our DPS.

    Meh on the self heal. Many of us would much prefer losing the 90% health requirement on some of our discs. Ditto for the blind/root. And I don't think any of us would say yes to "we're going to give you a self heal that cuts down your DPS." In fact, I think you'd hear a loud and resounding "NO!"

    A move that many of us didn't have an issue with since we were constantly being beat over the head with it when we asked for more personal DPS.
  9. Songsa Augur

    If devs wanted to remove the pure dps class mention theyll not wait for players to give utility ideas years after years. Like any other games there are classes specialized in dps aka pure dps classes (rog/zerk/wiz) and other classes that bring more in other aspects of the game in raid/solo/or group game. These classes should be behind in dps and the difference is from devs appreciation not us players even if we have all our way of seeing things.
    Brogett likes this.
  10. Brogett Augur

    I have no idea what game it is you play, because apparently it's not EQ. Maybe you drifted over from EQ2 or something!

    Fact is the non "pure" dps classes have plenty of special skills. Beastlords can slow mobs when we get lots of them, patching up for lack of shaman as needed or too busy events for the shaman to cope with. When a group healer has died I've often been saved by the beastlord and even a group ranger healing me too. Plus beastlords can do great ADPS. Rangers get nice roots and snares, which *is* useful in raid situations (we use these skills during arx raids), plus they get respectable ranged dps (again this is useful on some arx events when pure melee is basically worthless for portions of some raids). So clearly that flexibility isn't just on paper, it's very very real. So that's the hybrids sorted - they have great flexibility and so there *IS* a reason to bring them to your raid. You're not going to reject them because rog, ber and monk outdps them.

    Now let's look at monks. I think most would be happy if they were 5-10% behind rog/ber on average. Maybe in some situations matching and in others further behind, but on average. Why not equal on average? I explained that already - because they're not suffering detrimental effects elsewhere in order to do their dps. Put simply they're not so bloody-minded in the single persuit of dps.

    Finally, if you really think that having 1-2 classes ahead of everyone else would mean all others become worthless and get dropped from raids, then why is it we still have melee in game at all? By your logic we've had dropped every pure melee ages ago and replaced them ALL with casters. It doesn't happen. We did for sure lose quite a few as the gap was too wide and it stayed wide for too long, but most guilds still have all classes in their roster.

    Do you realise that 60k sustained is pretty low compared to the sustained casters can put out? I really don't think you're playing the same game as the rest of us.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  11. ~Mills~ Augur

    Behelit I remember you being active the last 2 betas possibly the 2 before but I just don't recall. What I do recall is the sentiment expressed in the two posts above, it was very apparent to those looking from the outside in and to the devs. I specifically remember an IRC in which eli said there was not going to be much offered in terms of dps this time so bring me other ideas. To which people said we are a dps class or we are a pure dps class so give us dps or nothing. So he flat out said fine you get nothing. Now others stepped in and redirected the convo and moved it along but dps idea after dps idea kept being requested randomly essentially wasting your time.

    Song no where at any point in the lore of the game both original and currently did it describe rogues, zerkers and wizards as being the pure dps classes. Thus somehow being entitled to the dps crown in every facet of the game. Pure classes were classes that were not hybrids of other classes aka beastlords being part shammy and part monk, sk being part warrior and part necro, rangers being part druid and part warrior, pally being part cleric and part warrior. Everyone else was a pure class. Most people accepted rogues, zerkers and wizards as the pure burst classes but that was it. And even that was iffy as for years casters where burst and melee were sustained before yellow mana, adps and discs got out of control.

    Regardless this is all opinion at this point and as you said its really only what the devs intend or want to do at this point. I still argue that this wasn't the fix that was needed but if it is its still well over done and causes more problems then it fixes if everything stays as is and melee gain 15-25% to their burst and also gain 30-50% to their sustained.
  12. Behelit Augur

    There's a pretty even split among Zerkers, those that want to be more well rounded (especially after seeing the homogenizing of dps classes/tiers the past few expansions) and those that cling to the old way of pure dps and nothing else. There is no clear majority and at the end of the day we're subject to the whims of the Devs, if they decide to give us utility no amount of stomping your feet with prevent it. The same way how no amount of stomping has garnered us utility.



    If you'd reject a 4sec stun up to 108 on a 18sec recast then you're flatly not thinking... The mentality that ANY utility is held against dps is asinine and patently false or Beastlords/Necromancers would be among the lowest dps classes based on utilities.



    You misunderstood, I wasn't saying a "heal that would lower dps" I was saying if the options were: 1. Standard DPS upgrades or 2. Meaningful way for the class to self-heal, we would be foolish to take a standard dps upgrade. Minor DPS upgrades coupled with meaningful utility is what the class is in desperate need of even if the utility is regulated to the group game.



    A move that has COST our class TREMENDOUSLY... or do you not recall every beta post-VoA being told that our "dps was fine, we can only give you small increases". So instead of gaining meaningful new abilities we were forced to accept mediocre dps increases that the community complained endlessly about. Its a matter of fact that the Zerker community has shrunk drastically in the past few years, and the reason is we are a one-trick pony in a full-on horse olympics.

    You may not have had an issue with it but alot did and either rerolled/retired. Meanwhile all the classes "beat over the head" with utility offers still managed to keep up with us in dps outside of burst.

    The odds of getting the sort of dps increases that yourself and others are looking for arent very likely based on the stagnation we've seen, I just think its wiser to play the cards we're dealt. If they're going to keep our dps in line with other more diverse classes, its foolish to ignore any sort of utility for our class.
  13. ~Mills~ Augur


    Its like arguing with BB at this point. You are so entrenched in your point of view that it serves no purpose to debate.

    Rangers and Beasts are hybrids they should be behind dps classes.

    Mages, monks and necros are dps classes they should fill dps roles as well as rogues, zerkers and wizards just differently. Changing it so rogues, zerkers and wizards maintain all their burst advantages but now also sustain for much more erodes the purpose of the dps mages, monks and necros bring to the table.

    I don't want to speak for all Monks but some are happy being 90% of your damage for their other benefits but thats not whats happening. These changes impact when and where, if ever, that they catch up to that 90% of your total damage being that they are 50% of your burst at times. Maybe they used to catch up by 2 minutes now it might not be until 5 minutes. If that turns out to be the case and every event ends up now lasting 4 minutes from all the bonus dps how fun is it playing a monk when trying to get into a guild or full support group in said guild? So now they might not get in that guild or they might end up in the partially or no support group and then continually be 65% of your dps simply because there isn't room in the max group for them with the 90% cap and only for fights 5 minutes long.

    Rogues, zerkers and wizards are not supposed to be sustained classes and outside of wizards recently never have been.

    I said its an extreme example and not something encountered in game. Its min maxing on paper not actual gameplay as few guilds if any still wield the power to drop or lose certain dps classes and only take 1 of 3 to the degree of stacking that many. I also said it doesn't always show up in the parse but the key to winning most events still remains burst dps. So if you dropped your melee completely you wouldnt be winning. Arx 1 trash needs to die fast enough, the parse padding on a long named fight at the end means jack. Arx 2 trash needs to die fast enough or you have no hope of killing the golems, the golems are essentially parse padding. Arx 3 you need to handle the undead and named event sucks for all but its still parse padding based on duration. Arx 4 you need to handle the trash and minis fast, the final mob is parse padding. Arx 5 is all about burning Lans and Calix down to 60% and then 40% fast and handling the spark workers asap, the rest is padding based on duration. None of that is reflected in the parse and yet its the most important aspect to most of these raids. Burst still maintains all its glory you just don't have 9 events of 30-90 second duration to link to your friends anymore to show off that 300-400K dps. You have 9 parts or phases of events that are really the key to winning that are drowned out in long duration events where sustained classes get to run away at times when the dirty work was already handled.

    What game are you playing? I see it as the one that is ruining the game where what you can show in a parse is all that matters. When at times stuff looks way off as this class can win the parse 2x over but in reality the only important part to the entire event was this first 60 seconds or this phase when these 3 classes did 300-450K but dismiss it.
  14. Fenudir Augur

    I can't say that I've ever met another zerker (not that there are that terribly many of us still playing one as a main) that would agree with you. I'm not saying they don't exist, only that I've never met one.

    You are correct that, at the end of the day, the devs are going to do what they're going to do and whatever your or I want isn't going to factor into their plans.

    If it were "You're getting this stun or nothing" then sure. I might as well. Would I prefer it in lieu of additional dps, absolutely not. As for the mentality of utility vs dps, I say you're wrong. It is absolutely true that the devs held back our DPS specifically because of War Cry even after it became irrelevant. Based off of that, I flat out don't trust them.

    Again, I hold a differing opinion. So does almost every other zerker I've talked to on the subject. DPS upgrades trump some kind of self heal. Every time. Let the healer do their job and let us do ours.

    As for utility. No. Period. No. We're rage filled killing machines. I don't want to take time from my hacking and slashing to ask you if you'd like your tea refreshed.

    I never said that I thought that everything the devs ever did was a good idea. One dev in particular I'm almost positive flat out hates our class and went out of his way to be a major screw up and a royal thorn in our sides. And yes, I do remember being told that "dps is fine". But to claim that the lack of utility is the reason that our dps was stagnated is absurd.

    I did but my comments directly meant for devs are always sent to them in PMs - and I've had interesting (and often infuriating) conversations with them over our dps.

    What kind of DPS increases do you think I'm looking for exactly? If you think I've looking to do 500K in the current game pulling head and antlers above every other class, you'd be wrong. If you think that I'm looking for necro level sustained, you'd be wrong there too. I'm not Mr. "Give me moar powah!!!" I think we both agree that kind of thinking is foolish.

    All things being equal, I'd like to see us be the best burst class going with very good sustained. But that means edging out other classes, not blowing them away -- and then only if I play well.

    I will tell you this; I wholeheartedly believe that the biggest detriment to our class is the lack of a unified vision on what we should be.
  15. ~Mills~ Augur


    The problem is you don't need to sustain as high as a necro to be as good as a necro at sustained. You just need to dominate burst enough and sustain well enough that having a bunch of your class or classes like you so fights end before the cross over point to that higher necro sustained ever occurs. Like what happens in the group game, with trash and during shorter raid events. The same logic applies with mages and monks dps if the point at which they catch up or get close is pushed out far enough it doesn't matter anymore and your dps > anyone elses dps in almost every scenario.

    Right now that crossover is roughly 70-120 seconds when everyone goes all out depending on the event. Scripts hurting melee more then casters impact this as does the fact that most melee drop off after beasts buff fades. Really this should always happen at 100-120 seconds but as I said melee get screwed at times based on certain events and their scripts. With these changes and 400k out to 1 minute now being possible paired with 50% increase to sustained and that flipping point might not happen until 3 minutes or even longer. The exact point where this happens for each sustained class is still to be seen but the premise is spot on. Events are going to get much shorter paired with burst classes dps levels being pushed out higher for longer.
  16. Derd Augur

    Isn't it just a pretty awesome thing that they even worked on this boost to melee? I don't think I've seen much of anything resembling thanking the entire staff at dbg for working on something that has been SORELY needed by all the melee class's. So, thank you one and all, the proc changes helped my dps already and this will surely be a welcome change, well unless we argue so much they decide we don't want it.
    beryon and Zarakii like this.
  17. Songsa Augur

    You can turn it the way you desire but the fact is people see rog wiz and bers as pure dps classes because they are specialized in dps. Youll not see a cleric ask for dps or tanking nor a dev giving them serious upgrades in these categories the same way pure dps will not have serious utility because this is not our core fonction. Other dps classes always had and still have a versatility that make them very useful in group or very efficient soloers or simply not dependant of anyone at the contrary of wiz/rog/ber, and that should have à reasonable cost.
  18. Songsa Augur

    According you necros should be uncontested kings of sustained dps and you put the crossing point at 1min40 2min. Am I right if i say that for you necros should have no compétition for more than 2 min fights then?
  19. Behelit Augur


    Our dps was stagnated in RoF/CotF/TDS because they thought it was "strong enough" not because we had warcry. At no time in the past 3-4 expansions have the Devs used warcry as a reason to keep our dps upgrades small.

    What about when you're soloing? Why isnt it held against other classes that can self heal in solo situations? This irrational fear is holding back the class.


    You acknowledge that we've been told that our dps upgrades were kept small because our dps was "fine", but you dont think it would've been beneficial to push for utility given we were already guaranteed to get small dps upgrades regardless of how much/little utility we got?

    I'm not saying lack of utility stagnated the class, I'm saying it made us near useless because dps was stagnated.


    Yes, but under what situation/conditions? Are we the best burst class only if we can root? What about ADPS? There is no balanced tuning point because there is no acceptable constant environment. In the second half of RoF and CotF we were the highest single target burn (60sec or less), but the vast majority of Zerkers weren't topping burn parses because they either didnt have full adps or were unable to root themselves.

    If you tune such that our sub-optimal burns are still competitive with top parsers than the perfect situation parses become out of control ahead (as we saw in VoA where the two perma-rooted bosses Zerkers dominated). And conversely tuning around the perfect adps/root burn leads to a vast majority of the Zerker community to feel underpowered and unnecessarily awkward to play (unless every raid mob from now on is perma-rooted but thats not happening).


    Yes, but are we talking about the same group of people having the unified vision? *cough* Devs *cough*
  20. Derresh Augur

    70s burn vs lvl 110 dummy with 4300 ac

    Raid buffs w/ 105 bard/sham + 95 bstlord adps + funeral dirge

    Derresh -vs- Combat Dummy Azia: -- DMG: 37447470 -- DPS: 520104 -- Scaled: 520104 -- Pierce: 30318193 -- Slash: 4056401 -- DirDmg: 1311575 -- Hit: 1181431 -- Frenzy: 579870 -- % dmg as normal: 4.7% -- % dmg as critical: 95.3% -- Non-crit rate: 28.6% -- crit rate: 71.4% -- Attempts: 1285 -- Hits: 1212 -- Missed: 73 -- Accuracy: 94.3% -- Avg Hit: 30897 -- Max hit: 152485 -- DMG to PC: 0


    [IMG]

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