Test Update 08/12/15

First off, the idea that zerkers bring adps to the table is the biggest line of bull pucky going and I resent that a seriously outdated and now useless disc is being held against our personal DPS. Also remember that zerkers have the avoidance of a tree while monks have the best avoidance of melee classes. Add to that the self heal and pulling abilities of a monk.

Zerkers are a one trick pony -- and I'm fine with that (In fact, I prefer it) but, based on that, we should be the best at that trick.

No. It's not.

yeah.... after seeing some stuff on test from a buffless no haste zerk with his keys all screwed up i dont want to hear anything about zerks complaining right now

Looked at sk parse and low hit was same vs both kala and test one hundred three, and the high hit was what was expected to be seen 4394(live) vs 6770 (test). I would say the parses are good for comparison.

edit to add in reference to my earlier post of parses for sk

If anyone is still interested in this quest (Necro/SK, Clr/Pal minor benefits) we put up our guide at http://eqresource.com/board/index.php?topic=123318

I'm pretty positive any Necro or SK like 65+ can complete this solo/with merc, maybe even earlier (unless there is a hidden level requirement I suppose )

Zerker

Live

lobby buffs strait melee
/GU Combat Dummy Qela in 987s, 9396k@9520sdps --- Gutss 9396k@9520sdps (9520dps in 987s)

bard songs + brutal disc + epic <Zerker>
/GU Combat Dummy Qela in 1521s, 52689k @34641sdps --- Gutss 52689k@34641sdps (34641dps in 1521s)

burn
fierce eye + quicktime + bard epic + shammy epic
zerker - frenzied resolve / savage spirit / second spire / blinding fury / reckless abandon / juggernaut surge / epic

/GU Combat Dummy Qela in 1501s, 99499k @66289sdps --- Gutss 99499k@66289sdps (66289dps in 1501s) 2k DD dps


Test
lobby buffs strait melee
/GU Combat Dummy Azia in 4689s Gutsse 74922k@15978sdps (15978dps in 4689s)


bard songs + brutal disc + epic <Zerker>

/GU Combat Dummy Azia in 1530s, 61488k @40188sdps --- Gutsse 61488k@40188sdps (40188dps in 1530s)

fierce eye + quicktime + bard epic + shammy epic
zerker - frenzied resolve / savage spirit / second spire / blinding fury / reckless abandon / juggernaut surge / epic

/GU Combat Dummy Azia in 1444s, Gutsse 137311k@95091sdps (95091dps in 1444s)

What weapon does your zerker have ? Numbers seem low

Makes me wonder if someone didn't accidently swap % values for Monks and Beastlords.
Personally, I would have set it up more like Berserkers 82%, Rogues 78%, Monks 74%, Rangers/Beastlords 70%, and tanks+bards 66%.That in my mind would make the most sense while keeping the Zerkers and Rogues clearly at the top, while reducing the gaps a reasonable amount.

A neat demonstration that %age mod doesn't equal %age dps improvement, because EQ hits are part multiplicative and part additive. Add in classes that have other forms of attack (spells, specials like kick/backstab) and the %age changes further.

Another change is that if you add in buffs, the multiplicative bit grows while the additive (usually) does not, so the ratios change. Eg here we see +68% dps to "lobby buffs" vs the stated 82% mod. If the AC changes (it will unless you buffed the combat dummy up majorly to 3-4k AC) or if you get ADPS from others then that 68% improvement can vary quite a bit.

It's a good ballpark number to start from though. Thanks for the posts.

My gut feeling is we're going to see more discs nerfed - rog, ber and others - as (I think) the intention was a sustained improvement and not burn improvement.

Grown a little quiet here since we started seeing parses. Are we all on board that is balanced or good design that only three classes can now hit 400k or more for burst while also now doing 60-70k dps pretty much endlessly. The more of them no matter the circumstances the better. No ramp time no tradeoffs just doing everything extremely well pretty much always.

Agreed apart from the last bit - joint best at that trick! Rogues are a one trick pony too as although we get other abilities (lockpick, some utility poisons, etc) they're much in the same league as your ADPS - either totally outdated or marginal / very situational use.

Except neither is a one trick pony, they are just less dimensional then some other classes but from their own doing. There is the one trick that everyone acknowledges and wants furthered and then there is all the other stuff that can be done that is swept under the carpet or ignored as it doesn't further the agenda of dps dominance at all costs or nothing.

Not from their own doing, but by design. It was SOE that chose to remove the benefit of lock picking and traps, not the players. That left one thing only; the dps. However it's also clear that the players that chose to play rogues mainly also chose to play a "pure dps" class so it's somewhat circular. The fact remains, we are essentially one trick ponies, whatever the reason.

I like to think of class makeups as choosing AAs from a fixed set of points. Each "class ability" line gets more and more expensive as you buy higher ranks. You could go broad spectrum and have reasonable dps with a bit of light healing and tanking thrown in (eg ranger) or very narrow focused (warrior, cleric, rogue). The dps types could be pure melee, pure caster, or a mix of the two. Basically you're allocating points. Gain a pet? That's another bunch of points you're spending too. Etc. If you ever get the situation where a class has apparently managed to spend more "class poiints" than others then clearly they aren't balanced correctly.

With that in mind, it comes down to how much certain abilities would cost. Back in the early days we'd rank things differently - eg lockpicking, disarm traps etc could be considerable but now they're worthless. Berserker ADPS while not totally worthless is now vastly reduced in power, probably similar to rogue thief's eyes (I haven't parsed it though), so consequently also would be a low cost ability. Monk mend however has massively gained power over the years so is worth a bit more now.

The main disparities I see really aren't monk vs rog/ber (MOST agree that rog/ber should be *slightly* ahead, but close), but the rise of hybrid dps being very good sustained, often better than some pure melee while keeping all their flexibility. But we have a better tuning framework now so the game is in a much better situation, even if IMO it still needs a little further tweaking.

I have first hand witnessed multiple classes for multiple years basically say give me dps or give me nothing. In betas, irc's, various talks with the devs. Classes were told even if you stick your head in the ground and say I only want dps you aren't getting it, so what else would you like. The response many times was still dps or nothing. Rather then pushing for other stuff to further weak points or gain some utility like some other dps classes did. The mentality for some classes was you will just use it against me so I would rather get nothing then something besides dps. So yes very much by their own doing many classes are less dimensional then others. I agree that some stuff was poor design but lock picking and traps aren't the only thing that was farmed out to others or watered down to basically useless. See slows, debuffs, fd, snares, ports, illusions, adps for some classes like zerkers, mez and hosts of other stuff.


I agree about hybrid dps being a tier below dps classes but the difference is I only believe there are two hybrid dps classes. Rangers and beastlords mainly because all the other stuff they bring to the table works everywhere groups, raids or solo. Buffs, adps, heals, cures, debuffs and on and on. To me mages, necros and monks also have lots to offer outside of just dps but in many cases it only applies to groups or solo, or just doesn't mean anything to raids. So they are dps and pretty much dps only while raiding. Meaning rogues, mages, necros, monks, zerkers and wizards are all in the same tier of dps, with different flavors of how and when. Others simply see wizards, rogues and zerkers as dps and they should win at dps always no matter what. And everyone else as hybrids despite lore and design since day 1 saying otherwise.

We needed the AC changes. We needed a smaller boost to sustained in a manner that lowered the dependence of melee on adps but that didn't make 3 classes better then everyone else pretty much always. We needed more burst events. We needed less melee unfriendly scripting or mutually detrimental scripting in raids. We don't need melee sustaining at the levels of necros or for the adps crutch to be further strengthened no matter what some people would have you believe.

Wow after seeing the parses I am really excited for this patch to go live! WB melee.

My zerker has burning steel broadsword and RoF t1 raid gear, so not the best. I only also have 7600 aa on that zerker, so still room for improvement.

The parses were auto attack only, so none of the clicked stuff. I was also missing a lot of adps for my "burn" parse.

I I was happy to see that the difference between test and live with brutal running was about the same as the sustained increase, so the reduction they took out of brutal was right on to where it should be. I agree we may see some adjustments in some of our other discs because our "burns" went up a bit.

I would be surprised to see any reductions to our discs as they'd have to lower non-hit dmg mod effects to counter act the increase to AF + Cleaving, and completely remove RA. RA + Innate rage, we'll be running at 142-148% hit dmg mod which is still slightly less than when Brutal + SS stacked (meanwhile Rogues will be over 200% hit dmg mod for 5min+ of discs).

On what data do you base this assertion?

I can't see melee being necro level of sustained dps after this patch, but I await more hard data. Do you have data the rest of us don't have? (I doubt it...)

I fully agree on beastlords and rangers being the only real hybrid dps. I disagree that it means everyone else should be equal.

Some classes deliberately give up flexibility in exchange for specialising further. Eg berserkers self harm in order to do more dps. Rogues limit themselves to rear only if they want more dps. What do monks give up in order to match them? Nothing. Therefore they shouldn't. Period.

In the early days, before berserkers, it was generally felt that monks should outdps rogues when both are hitting from the front and rogues should outdps monks when hitting from the rear. That's not massively far off where things are really (prior to these changes which are still ongoing).

If any class has abilities which are useful in a group but somehow not useful in a raid then I suggest asking them to fix those abilities so that they are useful. Or give you similar abilities that do apply to raid game play. The solution isn't to just give you more dps because then it breaks solo/group game play. Which whether you like it or not can't be blatantly ignored when balancing.