Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Hludwolf, Jul 20, 2015.
Does any of this number crunching really matter?
The way i see it, this is a major change that should be for the better than what ANY CLASS who criticals has right now.
The % damage mod will stack with your base 100% AND with other %'s that it wasn't doing before. This will allow anyone to either throw out a major short burn, or stay the same on spacing out there burns.
The improved innate % damage mod improves every class who can critical.
The only down side to this are that rain's are getting there critical chance downgraded. No dev or dev rep has stated as to why this is and i would very much like to hear the answer. However i'm sure it has to do with the improved critical damage as the extra 20% critical chance would push power levels over 9000.
I for one am more inclined to ask WHY this is happening than to argue about the effects. Casters are all in a rather good potion with TDS especially so in relationship to melee. I also agree with the assessment that these changes are going to get haze % multiplier (cause that's what it is) down to next to nothing, which makes me as an enchanter sad since its one of three reasons I do anything extra on raids (the other two are to make various other classes feel sad and because raiding in EQ buzzed is fun)
I for one smell something fishy going on here. . . and i don't think its the frogloks or iskars.
Also since i see that Dzarn is reading the thread (he liked a post above) I'll just say Hi and bow to your wonderful formulas spoiling awesomeness!
It's an increase to the spike in lieu of it being spread out, and in doing so we lose some of the benefit because of the changes. (250 + 250 + 200 + 160 + 175 + 127) is a lot less then (100 + 150 + 150 + 100 + 60 + 75 + 27). 1,162 vs 662. Or 1,418 vs 942 if you add in AA.
Whether or not someone gets multiple black wolf or illusions is entirely dependent on the guild and raid makeup. Nothing stops mages or Necros from getting multiples either. In my guild we run with 3 Enchanters, the Necros get one, the Mages get one and the Wizards get one. No one gets multiples. If your guild does it differently that's on them.
I haven't lied or misrepresented anything about this, and it is defacto when other nukers gain 100 passive that we already had from our familiar and we don't.
The change is not better for Mages. With all of these boosts, we're still losing significant DPS on rains on any situation that involves mods (28-42% decrease in DPS depending on the scenario). We do get a bump to our other spells, but during burns our Spears are ~10% behind Rains on live even with all of the stacking, and ~30% behind while modded outside of burns. The only scenario where we see a very slight increase (~1.5%) would be running absolutely no mods of any kind, which is very rare in a raid situation if you're smart about ability usage.
As far as "push power levels over 9000," I don't even know what that means. Had rains not been nerfed, it would have been a significant boost, around 30% to Rain burn DPS, and a 5-7% boost under other mods. However, we were the only class significantly effected by the rain nerf; every other nuking class will enjoy the full benefits of their un-nerfed spells. With all of the mods and high base damage spells Wizards have, it still makes no sense to me to arbitrarily target Mages.
So, what your saying is your upset that everyone is going to be equal now? You don't lose anything your gaining. That isn't a defacto nerf, your gaining just less then others. A nerf would be if you were at 450 then you were brought down to 407.
Or a nerf would be our First spire had its crit DMG mod removed completely lol. Regardless of the 100 being added elsewhere, it does not increase the crit DMG any by using it.
Gaining isn't a nerf, gaining less so that all classes are equal is not a nerf either. In no way, shape or form are Wizards getting nerfed in this patch. Your delusional if you think otherwise.
i know nothing of raiding mages but after reviewing some parses arent rains still going to be used exclusively on most tds raids? there combined are pretty dang good
Spear of Blistersteel (our level 100 Spear) is 44.8% ahead DPS-wise of Rain of Cutlasses on a burn on test. For reference, an un-nerfed Rain of Cutlasses would be 110.8% ahead of Rain of Cutlasses on a burn on test.
You are arguing this like a slow child. You never had the option of what you are claiming, you only have whats on live and whats on test. And its pure upgrade in every scenario for you and arguing otherwise is showing you to be as bad as brogett and songsa when it comes to what you actually want for your class.
Burn in raids:
Live: Your claim your max burn over crit mod on live is 506%. Yet something isn't adding up you said 283% passive over crit and 250% mod from either IoG or your spire. Sounds like 533% is your live max.
Test: Your max burn over crit mod is 952% and this ignores a few things which boost it higher for times or that might not be a normal group for you yet.
533/952 = 56% so you are gaining a 44% increase to your burn mod. Test changes benefit you quite a bit in burn.
Burn solo or group:
Live: Same 533% as in raid only for shorter time period. More if grouped with proper support.
Test: 692% since it all stacks now. More if grouped with proper support. Test changes benefit you quite a bit in burn.
Sustained in raid setting:
Live: After your first run of 250% fades from spire you then have 250% for another 2 min, 3:30 total. You then drop off to 200% mod from BW for another 2 min, 5:30 total. Two minutes more with the necro groups druid, which any decent guild should be doing, 7:30 total. So thats 3:30 seconds of 533% then a drop to 483% for 4 minutes.
Test: You have a mod of 545% for 90 seconds which then drops to 395%, loss of your spire, for another 30 seconds. 2:00 total. Lets ignore a second BW from the necro groups druid which any smart guild is doing. So thats 90 seconds of 952% mod then a drop to 802% for 30 seconds before finally falling to 407% indefinitely.
So you went from a capped burn of 533% live to 945% test over crit for the first 90 seconds of a parse. You then go to 533% live to 802% test for the next 30 seconds. You then went from 483% live mod for 2 more minutes to 407% test. I am very confident that the increase of 44% during your peak burn will over come the loss of 16% during your later sustained over crit. Even more so if you benefit from a second Black Wolf which now stacks with your free 100% passive boost you claim you didnt get. You went from a perma spell mod boost of 100% from your familiar to now having it stack with spell over crit mods. Meaning if you do in fact get a second black wolf in a raid you tack on 2 minutes more of 507% over crit mod test compared to the 483% you have on live. Test changes benefit you quite a bit in sustained.
Sustained solo or group:
Live: You went from 383% passive over crit mod and no options to use another familiar.
Test: You have 407% passive over crit mod and are now free to use your other familiar as an added benefit. Test changes benefit you quite a bit in sustained.
This ignores the proc changes which benefit you more considering you modify nukes the most. We still haven't factored in the small benefit of running another familiar instead.
Necros don't get multiple Black Wolfs because its benefit doesn't work on dots because the devs wouldn't allow it to because dot over crit mods stacked. Yet you still keep the benefit despite your over crit now stacking. The same applies to a few effects.
Big picture wizards can and will regularly hit 400K on burst and push out being caught for 4 or 5 minutes easy now. You refuse to admit this which is as bad as lying. These changes turn you guys into even more of a monster and yet you defend it or claim it actually hurts you which is comical.
But thats single target wouldnt it be more combined useing rains still? forgive my noob question never got into the caster thing it would also still save mana downing more mobs with less casting
Besides vitio everything in tds is combined so i would guess thats what most people push for
There are too many variables to take into account to give you a proper answer on that.
ah its cool just trying to help out if possible
sometimes even a dumb question can lead to great answers hehe
I didn't say I was upset. I was merely stating a fact. We gained less than everyone else. I know how strong my class is, and I'm ok with not gaining as much as others because of that. But it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
You might want to look up the definition of defacto.
Oh please. You lost nothing from first spire because it's now passive. You gained a permanent first spire.
Again I suggest you look up the definition of the word defacto.
And don't tell me for 1 second that if everyone gained something except you that you wouldn't be here crying your eyes out about it. I wasn't even doing that, I was just explaining the situation.[/quote]
You did gain something lmao. You just gained less then others.... Ironic is the word that comes to mind, your whining while you got the boost. You gained something, and your trying to play it off all woe is me, because you have been using it for years and now all the other classes can use it. Everyone got boosted in that area, you received no nerf to it either, you got a boost.
Again, your downplaying the gains. Which is fine, but your looking like a liar in almost every post because of that. Solid CRT representative.
First spire was an example of someone losing something, thought u needed to know...
When multiple people are this wrong (i.e. very wrong) about reality, correcting them can certainly appear as downplaying. But there have been no lies, no whining, there's been no "woe is me", only real information in the face of pernicious misrepresentation from players who appear not to even know how their own class works, let alone even basics of others'.
First spire wasn't an example of someone losing something, it's an example of someone not knowing what losing-something means.
And you are either ignorant or intentionally ignoring what I've said. I didn't say we could stack them before. I said we spread them out and the total bonus of spreading them out was (and still will be) higher then stacking them together.
It's not adding up because again you aren't listening or are intentionally doing it wrong.
Live: Our AA is 256%. Period. We have a spell Familiar that is 127%. It can be kept up forever, making it passive. 256+127 = 383 forever, aka passive.
When we burn we have 250 from spells. This overrides the familiar, making the total burn 256+250 = 506. Since the familiar is useless on a burn, we use our other familiar.
Test: Our AA is 380. Period. We have a spell familiar that is 27%. It can be kept up forever, making it passive. 380 + 27 = 407 forever, aka passive.
I NEVER said the changes on test do not benefit us on a burn. Of course they do. But it means we burn for a SHORTER time which makes the overall total damage at the end of the fight not all that much greater than how it was before. If all you look at is 60-90 seconds then we gained a lot. If you look at a 15-20 minute fight it won't be all that much higher. It should still be a little higher, but not massively so.
Same 506% but for a shorter time. Again, I never said we won't gain on a burn.
Again, it's 506. And what you are forgetting to factor in is that several of the mods with crit damage ALSO contain mods for crit CHANCE (IoG, Wolf, Bard). Which means that by stacking them all at the same time, we lose the crit chance mod sooner which means we lose more benefit on sustained than just the damage.
For the 5th? time now. AAs are 380 for wizards. It is not 407. The extra 27 comes from the familiar. If we use another familiar we will be 380 not 407. The only difference in sustained vs live is the +24 from AAs we didn't have before which is small enough most people won't even notice it.
I have no idea where the proc changes came from and I haven't had time to parse them out yet to see what they will do. As I understand it several classes will gain more than us because they are better with procs, but until I actually see it I don't know for sure.
No you don't get multiple black wolfs (neither do I, and I'd say most guilds don't, but I digress) but you also have an 82% crit rate and even with the increase in AAs you still have a higher AA crit damage (450) than anyone else. Even assuming we have Wolf 24/7 it's still 507% with a crit rate of 52% vs your 450% with a crit rate of 82%. You're going to be higher by a decent margin, which is fine because you're necros and that's what you do.
Now who is lying? I never refused to admit we could hit 400k. I said the test I did last night was for ~370. (I didn't have a Bard and that doesn't include debuffs since you can't have other classes debuff your test dummy).
But that 400ish sure as hell doesn't last for 4 minutes. Twincast & Fierce Eye fade after 60 which cuts it by a little over half, Spire & PD (40 counters is ~90s worth) 30s later and IoG & glyph 30s after that. After 2 minutes all that remains is Wolf for another 90s. (MAYBE longer if we get a second wolf, but that is by NO means a guarantee).
So Wizards gained a permanent 3/4th power Improved Familiar that they can stack with Kera's right? That sounds like a boost to me? Its been so long since I've seen one on my Zerker tho I can't be sure what it looks like anymore.
This change doesn't affect me......for now. However I can see a time down the road where I might be able to raid again. While I can see the crits dropping what I'm wondering are the end numbers.
I know with the Rk3 spells, augments, gear, etc. mages in RoV can hit the 250k DPS mark under optimal conditions. What I don't know is does this mean they can do 15M damage total if a fight lasts 1 minute? Can/will they do 30M if a fight lasts 2 minutes? I'm willing to admit ignorance on this issue. The only thing I know if what I did during a casual raid about a year ago. (which I know is a long way off a raid mage).
What I'm most curious about however is after the patch what's the total damage going to look like on the above fights? Let's say a mage can do 30M damage on a 2 minute fight. By switching line-ups how much total damage will they be able to do on that same fight? Will they run OOM in 1 minute doing the highest DPS burn possible? will it take 90 seconds? 2 minutes? What will their total damage look like not only on current raids but future raids? Just speculating here but is it possible that future raids are meant to last <1 minute? If so my guess is mages will shine (but am willing to admit I'm probably wrong).
Next question would be if mage total damage is whacked will raid leaders decide that a bard/chanter/shaman/what_ever_other_support_class be put into a "real" dps group and relegate mages to coh/rod bots again? Someone mentioned mages have great utility....we were great utility way back from Velious through OoW and many mages quit because we didn't want to be rod/coh bots. I did it for awhile and put Tweelis on the shelf for awhile over it. The days of doing garbage like spelling out "ROD WH***" for the clerics while fighting Emperor Ssra are done for me....forever.
Improved is better than Kera's on a burn after the changes. 27% vs 45% (avg) comes out to more when you factor in 100% crit rate on a burn and procs.
Kera will be better when not burning however, but still not by much.
So lets adjust and again keep the big picture in mind:
Burn in raids:
Test: 915%. This ignores a few things which can boost it higher.
506/915 = 55% or a 45% increase in your crit mod during peak burn.
Test changes benefit you quite a bit in burn.
Burn solo or group:
Live: 506% More if grouped with proper support.
Test: 665% More if grouped with proper support.
Test changes benefit you quite a bit in burn.
Sustained in raid setting:
Live: After your first run of 250% fades from spire you then have 250% for another 2 min, 3:30 total. You then drop off to 200% mod from BW for another 2 min, 5:30 total. So thats 3:30 seconds of 506% then a drop to 456% for 2 minutes.
Test: You have a mod of 535% for 90 seconds which then drops to 310%, loss of your spire and PD, for another 30 seconds. 2:00 total. So thats 90 seconds of 915% mod then a drop to 690% for 30 seconds before finally falling to 380 or 407% indefinitely. You should be getting the necro groups druid's black wolf here for another 2 min of 480%. Crit rate comes into play here later on even with auspice chains.
So you have a 45% increase to your over crit burn for 90 seconds. Then a 27% increase to over crit burn for the next 30 seconds, bringing you to 2 full minutes of big increases to burn which does impact your sustained. Without any crit rate concerns. With the 2nd druid BW you should always get you then have another 2 minutes of a 5% increased over crit burn while still carrying a very high crit rate. Without it you then have an 11% drop outwards until stuff refreshes. At no point will you go out to 15 or 20 minutes with just passive mods as some personal stuff and adps stuff refreshes before then. Yes your crit rate will come into play earlier now but you still are so boosted early on it will offset the small hit later especially when you also factor in the proc boosts to negate this further.
Test changes benefit you in sustained.
Sustained solo or group:
Test: 407% + proc changes + possible use of other familiar at times.
Test changes benefit you in sustained.
I never claimed 400K was carried out to 4 minutes. I said wizards can now hit 400k in burst or that 30-90 second window with ups and downs. Which when factored into the big picture puts them so far out ahead early on that rather than being chased down by 2-3 minutes into a fight it might now take 3 or 4 minutes to run them down. You already dominated current content burst and you were only second to necros at sustained. You are getting bursts to both to further this even more. These over crit changes are not well thought out for wizards even if down the road they allow more freedom or whatever for tuning or balance for the devs.
Can't believe they're going live with the mage rain changes.
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