Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by EQ Dev, Feb 9, 2021.
They missed Warriors killing Denken Strongpick in Ocean of Tears.
After how many years of epics being out you are going to change this, and make the work-around the main way of getting these quest items?
Shouldn't you be more concentrating on how to nerf wizards to reduce lag on the raids?
I am not seeing the addition of the next levels of AA clickies from CoV raid fingers, ears, shoulders etc. Many are missing.
This is something we plan to look at , but could not get in before the cutoff. Addressing this is more complex than altering timers like the majority of changes.
As for the proc changes. We do have more plans to go with what we did, BUT I wanted to get in what I could in the time I had and see ACTUAL effects (that parse is a good thing, but we also want to see in a full raid situation... maybe the decrease is not as much because raid lag changes enough to improve your DPS because of less lag... I'm not saying this is a guarantee of what will happen, but... a possible vector) before I go farther.
One thing we do plan, is to increase the damage on the procs, since they also get crited, increases here are multiplicative.
We also consider, but have not settled on, decreasing the proc rate and multiplying the damage by MORE than the decreased rate.
But, before we go hog wild and make lots of changes, we wanted to see the effect, and it's not something a solo parse can show. It needs to be on a fully loaded live server. Even test doesn't suffice, because it's not under the full load of people.
So yes, we are experimenting on you! But it's the only way this particular change will work in the long run.
While we're making changes to epic NPC spawn times, can Teydar's (SK epic) zone reset spawn time be looked at?
How about other type 5 aug vendors ? e.g. Eastern Wastes (ToV) ?
Why would bot farmers be interested ?
The augs are not droppable so they can't sell them.
The currency is not droppable so they can't sell that.
Basically, this is a good thing! instead of having to repeat the same missions 27000 times in order to buy one aug, or having to hope the named that drops the specific aug you want is open, you can go kill any open aug dropping named, get a few augs then sell them and get the aug you want.
Only reason I can see is that the person saying they shouldn't be sellable is the one who has the droppers locked down and is selling the loot.
All merchant sold items should be able to be sold back.
Simple answer is quit trying to make things difficult for other players.
Being able to sell these augs back is a good thing.
I guess if you already have all the augs you want, making it more difficult for others makes you feel uber ?
I appreciate the response; I feel better knowing that there may be future adjustments coming.
One thing I want to highlight is that procs benefit significantly from numerical damage modifiers. Spell damage is relevant to all classes and scales with proc volume, not base damage. That can be accounted for in proc base damage. However, the Wizard Fury of the Gods (ID 41857) ability has a huge impact on proc damage for that class, which I think warrants giving them special consideration/boosts if proc volume is going to decrease significantly. Fury of the Gods is an SPA 303 focus that adds 4,500 crittable damage to all direct damage spells (including procs) and lasts for four minutes. This is why you see massive portions of Wizard DPS coming from procs relative to other classes (40%+ in raids). It makes even very low base damage procs add notable amounts of DPS, and depends entirely on frequency.
I think it helps to give an example (obviously the numbers are theoretical). Since everything involved (proc base damage, SPA 303, and Spell Damage) crits, I'm ignoring crits as they won't change the relative numbers at all. Let's say you have a 2,000 point proc that averages 10 procs per minute, and 4,000 spell damage:
Total Proc Damage = Base Damage + (Spell Damage * 25%) = 2,000 + (4,000 * 25%) = 3,000.
Total Proc DPS = 3,000 * 10 / 60 = 500 DPS
Now let's reduce the proc rate to once per minute and multiply the base damage by 10:
Total Proc Damage = 20,000 + (4,000 * 25%) = 21,000
Total Proc DPS = 21,000 * 1 / 60 = 350 DPS
To compensate for the lost spell damage, the proc base damage would need to actually be 29,000:
Total Proc Damage = 29,000 + (4,000 * 25%) = 30,000
Total Proc DPS = 30,000 * 1 / 60 = 500 DPS
Most casters (Mages, Enchanters, etc.) would be mostly indifferent between a 29,000 point proc once per minute and a 2,000 point proc ten times per minute at that level of spell damage. For Wizards, though, this is still a large DPS loss for the duration of Fury of the Gods. Here's what that math looks like:
2,000 point proc 10x per minute:
Total Proc Damage = 2,000 + (4,000 * 25%) + 4,500 = 7,500
Total Proc DPS = 7,500 * 10 / 60 = 1,250 DPS
29,000 point proc 1x per minute:
Total Proc Damage = 29,000 + (4,000 * 25%) + 4,500 = 34,500
Total Proc DPS = 34,500 * 10 / 60 = 575 DPS (54% reduction)
A 10x reduction in proc rate is probably extreme, but in that case the proc is contributing less than half the DPS it would have prior to the change. Proc damage can't really be changed to reflect that given doing so would affect other classes. To the extent proc volume gets decreased, Wizards probably need some DPS increases to the damage their base spells do (or perhaps to Arcane Fury, given it's pretty close to matching the duration/reuse of Fury of the Gods).
Wait - you have logging turned on while we are raiding?
Just in case - you do have the log file excluded from your viruschecker, correct?
Seriously YES! I actually exclude my entire Everquest folder!
There is a shaky hypothesis I want to address. That your proc rate changes can be made up by helping raid lag so the decrease is mitigated.
Very rarely, we'll have a raid instance with no lag (or at least most players experience no lag). This happened to us a few weeks ago on Zlandicar (a heavy burst event). I posted the best parse for a 60+ second fight I've ever had in MS. And I finished 14th as the top non-dot caster, one of my lowest showings on an event (without weird down times) in a long time. My take away ... lag is affecting other classes more than just me (a wizard).
Raid lag affects all classes. Reducing raid lag will help all classes. But taking damage away from certain classes (especially wizards), hurts always ... regardless of lag. Promises of future changes is nice ... but there was no reason not to bump the proc damage at the same time (and yes, Sancus points out how wizards are basically screwed when you start messing with proc rates).
One more thing. Swarm pets ... please tell me you are considering removing swarm pets. Not actual spell casted pets, but those miniscule little pets that every class wants to cast and cannot help themselves.
Nerfing those aa lines/items should have been the very first thing done. Effect on current dps output would have been minimal and you would have had a nice clean slate to work from for other possible vectors of causing lag.
Not addressing swarm pets is like your cancer doctor ignoring the fact you're smoking 3 packs a day...
I think it should be noted that there is a difference between a small event occurring often and a large event occurring rarely. A lot of small events average out more easily over a short period than large uncommon events.
I'd much rather see procs simply eliminated and their corresponding damage added to our actual spells.
I have to believe that a better, long term solution to the "proc problem" would be to add a new spell effect that is stackable with itself. This would allow you to keep all the existing proc items/augs but change them to the new effect.
This was, in theory, what the Spell Damage stat on gear was supposed to do, but that only works on gear (you can't add Spell Damage via a buff) so it would have to be a new SPA to replace the buff procs.
See you Monday 1950 Eastern time?
nope don't have them all still collect them.
I was just saying if people are worried that the mobs that drop the type 5's are going be permacamped because of this just get the dervs to renamed say the ones on the merc. people can still farm the name or do the missions depending on which way. but it keep the names from being permacamped.
how the dervs do it don't matter to me.
I won't be sitting there camping a named that don't drop a aug i don't need to just sell it to a npc. not worth my time.
I be doing mission and camping the names in between and once i get all the type 5 i need for each alt i move on and not bother with said mobs after.
When the aug you need is permacamped it will make sense to camp a different aug with the intent to sell it back for currency.
I just set them to be more in line with others like it.
No, YOUR math is bad. You can't use theoretical maximums in your calculations because less than 0.01% of people are actually operating at those maximums. You also can't count each mission as giving 270 currency .. yes, it gives that cumulative for 6 players, but EACH toon only gets 45. 4 missions per run, each toon gets 180 .. can run MAX 4 times a day, so each toon has a maximum potential of 720 per day, not 4,320. Now, most people are only going to run them once, MAYBE twice a day .. so realistically most toons are only earning 180-360 coin per day. Sure, there will be outliers, people that are able to do 3 runs in a day .. but the bulk of the playerbase is only running them 1-2x a day.
In your example of Morwena, you also can't assume theoretical maximums. The bulk of the playerbase is NOT killing every PH the moment it spawns for 24 hours straight. Even if we're generous and say they do it for half that time, and use your same approximations of drop/spawn rate, that's 0.648 augs per day from farming, and reduces the equivalent coinage to 226.8.
226.8 vs 180-360 .. yes, that IS a tough choice.
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