EM15 Mage Fire Pet DI spread Round by Round Avoidance Average incoming dps 8447 With the lowest hit points and a notably worse DI spread than the earth pet. Clearly this one is the weakest pet for tanking parsed so far. From a passive hit by hit mitigation standpoint, it still remains above player tanks but paired with low hit point values and a lack of avoidance - even at baseline it is obvious that this pet is no longer suitable for tanking purposes - as intended.
Are u using defensive discs and cooldowns in these tests or just standing there? Same in regards to pets, cooldowns or no?
Oh I just found out you are not. What % of the time does a tank have a stance or defensive disc available? Vs what length of time for a pet? It seems to me you are skewing your data on purpose, due to tanks having stronger active mitigation that is available more often. Let me know the lengths of time u can chain defensives with your warrior vs your pet, as best u can. To be fair Eq does not equate to tanks and pets standing there doing nothing
Necromonious in the first series of parses (that now locked thread from months ago) what limited testing was possible was done to compare defensive discipline use vs things like fortify companion as well as practical application of vie/block buffs on the part of a mage. I will not re-create the wheel for you again, you are welcome to go find it yourself. The case was made at that time and the development team agreed at that time. That discussion is water under the bridge. The purpose of this thread is to evaluate the proposed changes currently on Test and compare them to a previous baseline. Please stay on topic. Thanks.
Ok on topic. I am saying do a test now on test server(not the one from months ago) that involves defensives. The use your defensives back to back, and time the length, and compare to the length of time of pet defensives. Please. To be fair. It is practical to be including these because players constantly are using their cooldowns when questing and grouping not just vs named
My opinion thus far with the testing I've done: I can tell you now that since pets are now receiving DI 17-20 consistently that a knight or a warrior using their abilities and cooldowns will be tanking undeniably better than an EM15 pet. For passive mitigation with no other used spells or abilities (not that it ever happens), the EM15 pets will be tanking better than raid knights and all group geared tanks. I cannot comment on Em19-21 pets as I do not have access to them for parsing purposes. Just looking at the graphs, tanks are now once again the ideal "tanks" in considering uncomplicated single target encounters (big bad baddy wailing on them for short or extended periods of time). This will be more noticable on raids that don't have boss mechanics that make an npc tank preferable (avoiding fds et al). The Earth pet in particular remains very capable with still steady incomming damage. The Air pet may well be the better choice on stunnable content.
Let me know if I'm I correct on this. Tanks are now better in environments where they are actively using their defensives intelligently but sparingly (aka a realistic grouping environment) and also when they are blowing them all on a named. So in just about any tanking situation in everquest tanks outperform pets, which also have their lifelong downside of not being able to tank next to dps classes. So one could say, that aside from encounters where a tank could be mezzed, pets are worse in every way. Gotcha. I know you won't, but in all fairness u should mention what you said here along with your tests on the first posts
Daegun has devoted a significant amount of time to parsing this stuff, and he's right the parses of warrior defensive are available (along with one "intelligently" cycling discs). At the time pets still had an advantage mitigation wise (though they always have avoided terribly). I don't think he's in any way obligated to run out and parse every possible situation. Earth pets have a 20% mitigation bonus on rootable mobs which isn't included, along with our 3 rune lines which are useful on a single target (they quickly loose effectiveness on multiple mobs). The devs did state that they may take another look at our activated abilities (I'm assuming to increase them), so we have something to do other than spamming rather ineffective (due to cast time) heals. It may be in our interest to ask for a fast casting, longer refresh (12, 24, whatever) heal so that we have a way to "actively" help our pets with spikiness. Runes are great but after a bad round our 3.75 second cast time heal isn't going to save us. It could have some downside if that's needed (large mana cost, locks out a rune, something like that if it's deemed too powerful). Personally I'm happy our air pet is useful again, since it used to be my favorite pet. I wish the earth pet had a real significant AC/mitigation bonus over it while it had a real significant avoidance bonus (something more noticeable), but the end result is I'll be using my air pet a lot more. The biggest fear I have is the RS pet. It used to last ~18 seconds (best recollection) with an EM 15 focus. On live last I checked it was living ~7-11 seconds with an EM 20 focus. If it decreased further with this change, it will go from a sturdy off tank to off tanking for maybe 7 seconds (with a raid focus). As a Mage I don't really have any other option but to tank that add with my normal pet now. Maybe we could get a low DPS (but still decent aggro) RS pet that lasts at least 12 seconds along with a higher DPS but low tankability RS pet (only problem is the latter would need to be able to survive on raids or there will be DPS repercussions). Regardless of intended mitigation, since it's inception 10 years ago it has served as an effective off tank for one add. In a group I don't even cast these since the mob dies too fast for it to be worth it (they're like a DoT in many ways). Yes, they soak up some hits on a single trash mob, but on a named my main pet will build up enough aggro that after the first or second RS pet he will be taking all the hits. Where this pet really helped mages (who can't CC) was with more than one mob, where our hit-based runes are not nearly as useful. That's the one area I really would fight to have changed in this nerf.
Old parses of a warrior cycling discs. Not new ones. He posted new parses of just passive mitigation, said pets mitigate better than warriors, and said the nerfs were maybe "not enough" on page 1 of this thread. If that's not bias I dont know what is He's obligated to parse more than 1 situation of current changes! Especially since it is the LEAST likely situation be happening at any given time (everyone sitting around with no cooldowns running). That's all he's parsed of the current changes ok. And what do warriors and knights have? Are we making lists? I'm confused
Since when is some dude obligated to parse anything? Go do it yourself. Or ask the developers who are deciding on what to actually change to post what they are basing their numbers on.
I don't have a level 100 warrior, level 100 sk, and level 100 paladin in group gear edit: the developers are asking for parses, so I'm assuming they are basing their numbers on player parses. As of now, Daegun is the only one who can and has been parsing tanks and pets side by side, so he wins
You do not need new parses of anyone cycling anything, and I am not your servant obliged to do your bidding. If you want those parses, YOU go get them. Pets were independently deemed to be mitigating far beyond their intended potential. After looking into the issue they found and have now admitted to multiple flaws in their system. Those aren't my words - those are the words of the everquest development team. Where tanks are today is irrelevant. Where pets are today compared to tanks is likewise irrelevant. The only relevant point is that pets in their prior state were not working as intended. The devs have shifted pets to a place that is what they intend - and my parsing so far is showing that the changes are not that bad.
You guys do realize that if he were to parse with discs the results would be the same. Vie discs just take 20% off the top,, thus the DI spread will be the same. LS discs will just push the DI spread into a more condensed graph, but the graph will still show the same results. pets low on teh di spread, pc tanks all throughout. Runes just misconstrue the hits, they don't change DI at all. As to the new war stances those came out after he did his parses, they came out on June 19th patch.
I don't play a warrior, but defensive still has a 45% mitigation buff last I checked... It's not like discs changed *that* significantly in the last few months. If he came to the conclusion the nerf wasn't enough, I missed that and I definitely disagree. But my understanding is he was trying to provide a point of reference. How about we compare a warrior under defensive spamming abilities to an earth pet with fortify companion and runes multi bound? If he wants more of a change then I think he should do so, but if he's just documenting the changes he doesn't have to. I guess I missed his conclusion that more had to be done. My assumption was he was saying "this is how it was and this is how it is now. Draw your own conclusions." If this was an incorrect assumption I apologize and I would agree a representation of activated abilities would be appropriate.
Ah, sorry, he said it in a different thread: "The trick was to make sure it was not too much and not too little. They definitely didn't go too far with it. For some of the pets, it appears they did not go far enough, however" Yes please! Can anyone with a warrior and mage do this???
Well last stand has to do something to tanking... It may not change DI but it obviously changes something or it would be useless. I'm assuming it would affect the round by round chart significantly.
You're really just making yourself look bad here, Necromonious. He provided reasonable parses across quite an array of conditions. The parses are limited in what you can read from them, but they are very useful pieces of data. This is true of all parses. If you can't provide the parse that you'd like to see, it is not incumbent upon another party to provide that for you. Failure to do so does not imply any nefarious agenda. Daegun has been parsing things related to defensive abilities for years, this isn't anything new for him, it just happens to affect you here. Oh well. Pets have been OP. Now they will be good but not OP (assuming the nerf isn't too huge, so far it looks reasonable). Carry on. Adapt. Improvise. Overcome.
It does change the DI, It takes 9 sets of the DI out, and only lets the war get hit for 10 of the DI (cause he has 5% (1) natrual di shift). But that just means he will be hi at the upper end of the 1-10 di spectrum instead of the upper 1-20 spectrum. Still making the war take spikier damage, thus having a more differing di spread than a pet.
I understand, and it's helpful. It's just really coincidental. For 2 reasons. 1: he cannot do one more parse with cooldowns. And 2: he only admitted when directly challenged that pets underperform tanks when considering active cooldowns on page 2 of this thread, yet he would have known it all along, or at least after the initial round of testing. He's an objective kind of personality, and I like that. But that is not objective reporting. That's all I'm saying
It actually still leaves you with 20 DIs Last stand just takes half of the damage off each DI interval, but there are still 20 DIs.
