Test Server Pet Mitigation Parse thread.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Daegun, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. Tarvas Redwall of Coirnav, now Drinal

    Someone should probably run a couple of parses in a fully and semi supportive group though for both classes.
  2. Unsunghero Elder

  3. Piemastaj Augur

    Like I said a lot of people are posting buffs and such but debuffs among other things aren't being stated so was curious.

    Thing is any type of buffs or debuffs is going to keep the same numbered outlook. Like the hit values should remain the U shape we are seeing. Which is why we kind of need new parameters or some type of feedback from Aristo as to where or what he would like parsed next. Barring a bug of some sort there isn't a reason that pets will start tanking differently if we parse for 10k more hours and such.

    Hopefully they clear some stuff up tomorrow when they return to works.
  4. Makavien Augur

    Highly doubtful there might be a really easy named but in Tower of rot it took 3 healer mercs on a fully raid geared warrior with bard and mage being 3 boxed a couple times I even had to call in a cleric friend because of the anti dps mechanics.

    As a raid gear warrior who has completed all the rof tier 1 - most of tier 3 and some of tier 4 and all cotf tier 1 and 2 Named minus argin hiz and all progression and collections it is much safer to use 2 healer mercs and 1 dps merc on all but the current content.
  5. Piemastaj Augur

    He was talking about you have to kill trash to get named to spawn which is why those parses are relevant. Not that groups can or can not kill trash just that trash is a constant.
  6. Tarvas Redwall of Coirnav, now Drinal

    On my warrior I tried The Lost Devourer with a raid geared ranger (me), the mage, a raid gear druid, a wizard merc, and a cleric merc. It didn't end pretty.
  7. Unsunghero Elder

    Which is why it is so frustrating to hear people claim T1 names as "current content". Not that T1 was that long ago, cause it wasn't that long ago. But that the T2 are just THAT much harder. It is kind of insulting to the work the developers did trying to create more challenge (which everyone asked for) just to have someone say "bah, mages could solo that". People who have seen T2 content know better, but other people that haven't will be misinformed and think "oh well cotf is still way too easy".

    But that will probably diminish as more time goes by, hopefully. T2 will begin to feel more "current"
    Wayylon likes this.
  8. gcubed Augur

    You do know that a ranger's only way to slow a mob is the same way a warrior would do it, do you not?

    And before you say you meant an attack debuf, that it a defensive proc that requires the ranger to be getting hit (i.e., the ranger is tanking, not the warrior).
  9. Makavien Augur

    Named really are not the issue though you do see that gear has two name tags attached to it correct ?

    "Group" Gear
    "Raid" Gear

    Then you have the random zone wide drops for soloing classes killing for exp.

    The people are all using Roon just for a baseline people worrying about what name it is or what expansion it is are really missing the point.

    Just like people worrying about everything other then the average hit and di spread are focusing on the wrong thing too.

    That is really all there is to tanking with a smooth line of healing.

    When a warrior hits last stand discipline it smooths out the line by 45%

    When a paladin or sk use holy or unholy they smooth out the line by 35%

    When a paladin or sk self heals themselves they smooth out the casting line of the other healers healing them.
  10. Piemastaj Augur

    Did i say anything about how he slowed? No, I merely asked a SIMPLE and RELEVANT question to parsing.

    Someone mentions a ranger then I am assuming they are slowing the mob with their epic, which is why I asked for clarification.

    Settle down young padawan....
  11. gcubed Augur

    The point is that IT IS SPIKES THAT KILL. Pet tank, player tank, it doesn't matter (especially after this nerf). The only time damage per second has any real significance to a player tank is with high DB/low DI mobs and mitigation is not a factor against such a mob.
    Xeladom and feiddan like this.
  12. Unsunghero Elder

    what's that about gear? "Raid", like the bugspray?

    You absolutely have to worry about what expansion it is or what named it is because .... are you really making me type this out? How many "named" mobs are in everquest??? How night-and-day different is a named now from one just one expansion ago? Oh my God, there isn't a single other term I can think of that has a bigger possible range in this game than "named".

    There are really 2 main reasons people would ever really go try to solo a named mob in this game. 1.) for some kind of upgrade 2.) bragging rights. Number 1 you rarely ever see these days (unless the character is really new or undergeared), maybe something you could sell. 2.) happens way more often, just about the only reason

    Now, regardless of the reason, it's meant to sound sensational. If a person is saying "he just solo'ed a named" either positively or negatively, they aren't trying to imply Fippy Darkpaw from Queynos. Solo'ing named mobs almost exclusively is a "bragging rights" thing to do, has very little impact on that character's progression or the community at large, and is twisted as often as it can be to sound as sensational as possible. Because the whole purpose to begin with, is usually to brag!

    This is completely illogical, based on simple statistics. Every single active cooldown you use is a NEW variable with a very different possible effect, based on how it operates. Even if they all had different versions of the same effect (say a % mitigation), the overall impact would NEVER be so simple as one single percentage multiplication. But it's wrong to say "oh I guess it's too complicated then, ignore them". Maybe if this game was 10 years older, but there's so much ability bloat these actives are going on all the time.

    Like I mentioned before, the only true way to test would be to stack on actives, one at a time cumulatively, with a parse for each. Which would require a simulator. That would give you a range of possible defense, which you'd then have to assign some additional arbitrary score to the length of time these varying degrees of "defense" are available. Which is why, the devs should be testing their own game ;)
  13. Unsunghero Elder

    The point is PETS GET SPIKES TOO. And theirs are way worse now, than player tanks
  14. gcubed Augur

    I never said they weren't getting spike damage. I just said that before SOE goes ahead with this nerf, they also need to take a look at group player tanks.

    Here is what I mean:
    In Tier 2, there are named that appear to be designed specifically to shred group tanks. These named typically kill the tank when the mob is between 50% and 20% (a matter of how much DPS the group is putting on the mob and how lucky the tank is). Groupers need a secondary tank to deal with these mobs and have any reasonable degree of success. This secondary tank position can be taken by a variety of classes, including (dare I say it...) pets.

    There are quite a few groups out there that rely on pets as their secondary tank. If pets suddenly become unreliable in this role... Well, there are only six slots available in a group. So what am I suppose to do? Kick the mage out of the group and replace her with a paladin? Pretty much all the choices will reduce the group's DPS. which makes the fights longer. Which guarantees more damage spikes on the tank. Which means the tank dies more (or sooner in those wonderful need a secondary tank to win fights).

    SOE is famous for taking something that works, but doesn't work the way they want it to, and breaking it so they can fix it. It generally takes them months to figure out how to fix it and implement the fix. In the mean time people suffer. Usually, these nerfs only affect the class that is being nerfed, but this particular nerf pretty much affects every single grouper that plays with a pet class (as I said, being a single grouper I don't give a rat's hindquarters how it affects raiders) and not just the pet classes.

    I really have no idea what SOE's plan is. Maybe they do intend to boost the survivability of group tanks. Maybe next expansion they won't have any fights that require a second tank. Ideally, they wouldn't break anything to fix it, they would just fix it. But until they get their **** wired everybody is going to be hurting.
    beryon and Wayylon like this.
  15. Zellic Elder

    What named are those?
  16. Zellic Elder

    Are you for real? Mercs are the bottom of the barrel of healing, and content most certainly isn't based around one merc healer. Neither group tanks nor any kind of pet should ever expect to just waltz in and kill the highest tier group encounters with one merc healer. If they could, there would be absolutely zero challenge for any group containing a proper healer. Zero, zip, nada.

    Farm xp in HA and other Diablo style content, sure, one merc healer is just fine.
    Brogett and Tarvas like this.
  17. Tweelis Augur

    So I just got done with two more mobs, both even con's.

    As before, EM15 air pet with all aa's done. Summoned swords and burnout. First one was with merc on balanced. There were a few spikes that made me nervous but my pet never enraged on the alerter.

    Also of note, my pet cast air elemental strike 32 times but the alerter was only stunned 22 times according to my logs. The alerter also cast 25 spells which helps account for it's lowered dps against my pet....two dementing visions, one polychromatic assault, one thin air and the rest tash. I feel this is significant because there was a 3 second delay between when the alerter cast a spell and when it swung at my pet. Between being stunned 22 times (at 3 seconds each) and casting 25 spells (causing it to not swing at my pet for 3 seconds each) the mobs dps would be substantially higher if it was straight up swinging the entire fight.

    An orafik alerter on 8/4/2014 in 437sec
    --- DMG: 1708033 (100%) @ 3909 dps (3909 sdps)
    --- DMG to PC: 2778823 @6359dps
    --- DMG: 1708031 (100%) @ 3927 dps (3909 sdps)
    ------ Total: 1708031 -- Slash: 1592592 -- DirDmg: 72578 -- Bash: 27381 -- Kick: 15480
    ------ Normal rate: 64.1% (55.3% of DMG) -- Critical rate: 35.9% (44.7% of DMG)
    ------ Attempts: 1502 -- Hits: 1005 -- Misses: 263 -- Defended: 234 -- Accuracy: 79.3%
    --- DMG to PC: 2778823 @6359dps
    --- DMG: 2 (0%) @ 2 dps (0 sdps)
    ------ Total: 2 -- DirDmg: 2
    ------ Normal rate: 100% (100% of DMG)
    ------ Attempts: 1 -- Hits: 1 -- Misses: 0 -- Defended: 0 -- Accuracy: 100%
    Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

    Tanking Details
    /G Tanking summary for: Gobanab --- Total damage: 2778823 --- Avg hit: 5136 --- Swings: 718 --- Defended: 127 (17.7%) --- Hit: 541 (75.3%) --- Missed: 50 (7%) --- Accuracy: 91.5% --- Dodged: 20 (3.3%) --- Parried: 24 (3.6%) --- Blocked: 58 (8.1%) --- Riposted: 25 (3.9%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)


    The second mob was a gehein pillager, also an even con. Same pet as above. This time I wanted to see if I could solo the mob so my merc was on passive. Although I didn't have any additional buffs on my pet (still just burnout, no fortify, no groundswellstance, etc.) I was chaining promised and renewal as fast as they would pop. My pet died when the mob was at 72%.

    Spells cast by the pillager include:
    [Mon Aug 04 06:35:38 2014] a gehein pillager begins to cast a spell. <Harm Touch>
    [Mon Aug 04 06:35:45 2014] a gehein pillager begins to cast a spell. <Shadow Vortex>
    This caused a 2 second delay between casting the spell and its next melee swing.
    [Mon Aug 04 06:36:34 2014] a gehein pillager begins to cast a spell. <Bond of the Blacktalon>
    Also a 2 second delay between casting and swinging again.
    [Mon Aug 04 06:37:38 2014] a gehein pillager begins to cast a spell. <Dire Stricture Rk. III>
    A 1 second delay until the pillager swings again.

    A gehein pillager on 8/4/2014 in 122sec
    --- DMG: 480382 (100%) @ 3938 dps (3874 sdps)
    --- DMG to PC: 757858 @6263dps
    --- DMG: 480380 (100%) @ 3938 dps (3874 sdps)
    ------ Total: 480380 -- Slash: 451404 -- DirDmg: 15514 -- Bash: 8706 -- Kick: 4756
    ------ Normal rate: 63.5% (54.2% of DMG) -- Critical rate: 36.5% (45.8% of DMG)
    ------ Attempts: 401 -- Hits: 277 -- Misses: 65 -- Defended: 59 -- Accuracy: 81%
    --- DMG to PC: 749860 @6301dps
    --- DMG: 2 (0%) @ 2 dps (0 sdps)
    ------ Total: 2 -- DirDmg: 2
    ------ Normal rate: 100% (100% of DMG)
    ------ Attempts: 1 -- Hits: 1 -- Misses: 0 -- Defended: 0 -- Accuracy: 100%
    --- DMG to PC: 7998 @7998dps
    Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

    Tanking Details
    Tanking summary for: Gobanab --- Total damage: 749860 --- Avg hit: 5171 --- Swings: 200 --- Defended: 36 (18%) --- Hit: 145 (72.5%) --- Missed: 19 (9.5%) --- Accuracy: 88.4% --- Dodged: 7 (4.1%) --- Parried: 3 (1.6%) --- Blocked: 16 (8%) --- Riposted: 10 (5.5%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

  18. Makavien Augur

    That is completely false . A group geared tank wouldnt even last through defensives on almost every named in rof cotf def not voa with 1 healer merc.

    They would also not be pumping out anywhere from 14 k - 30 k dps

    And they would def not be moloing them.

    2 - 3 healer mercs = one real healer if even then. Please get facts straight.

    Click on my magelo and look at my gear I use 2 healer mercs in tier 1 cotf and 2 in rof tier 1 - 2 and 3 in the rest of both them expansions.

    You really must be comparing a full group with a warrior tank vrs a molo pet because any other comparsion your doing would ruin any valid comments you have made.
  19. segap Augur

    I've done named in all tiers of rof with 1 healer merc/1 tank merc and also done named in cotf t1 with the same combo.

    I play off peak and have been able to group with a real tank only 3 times in 12 months and a healer of any kind once in 12 months. The group game becomes unviable if you eliminate/decimate pet tanking, merc tanks and/or the ability for 1 merc healer to cover groups.
  20. Tweelis Augur

    I just fought the same Gehein Pillager from above only my pet was as bad bootie as I can make it. This is by no means what every fight would be like but rather a best case scenario of what we can do with our pets in a burn situation.

    This fight includes one Relentless Servant Rk. II part way through the fight; it never got agro over my earth pet so no tanking stats for it on this fight.

    EM15 earth pet with standard proc swords and the following buffs:
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] I have 100 percent of my hit points left.
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Burnout XI Rk. II
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Flameskin Rk. II
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Iceflame Eminence (note, this is rank 1)
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Fortify Companion (maxed)
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Frenzied Burnout (maxed)
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Obedient Companion
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Certitude Rk. II
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Second Wind Ward
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Virulent Talon (maxed)
    [Mon Aug 04 09:23:36 2014] Aegis of Kildrukaun (AA, NOT the spell)

    A gehein pillager on 8/4/2014 in 77sec
    --- DMG: 1720964 (100%) @ 22350 dps (22350 sdps)
    --- DMG to PC: 232387 @3018dps
    --- DMG: 1547759 (89.94%) @ 20101 dps (20101 sdps)
    ------ Total: 1547759 -- DirDmg: 1037374 -- Slash: 505723 -- Bash: 3380 -- Kick: 1282
    ------ Normal rate: 81.5% (84.9% of DMG) -- Critical rate: 18.5% (15.1% of DMG)
    ------ Attempts: 481 -- Hits: 367 -- Misses: 73 -- Defended: 41 -- Accuracy: 83.4%
    --- DMG to PC: 232387 @3018dps
    Tweelis + pets
    --- DMG: 173205 (10.06%) @ 4330 dps (2249 sdps)
    ------ Tweelis:
    --------- Total: 2 -- DirDmg: 2
    --------- Normal rate: 100% (100% of DMG)
    --------- Attempts: 1 -- Hits: 1 -- Misses: 0 -- Defended: 0 -- Accuracy: 100%
    ------ Tweelis`s pet:
    --------- Total: 173203 -- Slash: 170695 -- Bash: 2508 -- Kick: 0
    --------- Normal rate: 60% (54.7% of DMG) -- Critical rate: 40% (45.3% of DMG)
    --------- Attempts: 110 -- Hits: 65 -- Misses: 16 -- Defended: 29 -- Accuracy: 80.2%
    Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

    Spells cast during the fight:
    A gehein pillager on 8/4/2014
    Vibantik - 61
    --- Companion's Strike II - 18
    --- Earth Elemental Strike IX - 7
    --- Iceflame Strike - 12
    --- Virulent Strike - 24
    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

    /G Tanking summary for: Vibantik --- Total damage: 232387 --- Avg hit: 2833 --- Swings: 151 --- Defended: 50 (33.1%) --- Hit: 82 (54.3%) --- Missed: 19 (12.6%) --- Accuracy: 81.2% --- Dodged: 3 (2.3%) --- Parried: 8 (5.6%) --- Blocked: 9 (6%) --- Riposted: 6 (4.5%) --- Absorbed: 24 (15.9%)