TDS Raid Event 3: Principal Vicarum Nomia - Progression!

Dear Gooodness Gracious.

I've never seen so many otherwise intelligent people acting like chickens with the sky is falling.

This entire episode is 100% Sony's fault for a Bugged Events. Period.

I am finding it hard to believe some of you saying "Ranking Accuracy" doesn't matter.
Because I firmly believe it does matter to many, and if you were affected you would care.

Let's look at it by tiers.

I get ROI, is secure in knowing they are #1. No one actually doubts your kills, and speed. Even guilds who would love to pass you and try know you are #1. But for ROI players to say Ranking Accuracy is partly a factor that by ROI Dedication + ROI Skill you were so far ahead that a bugged event couldnt possible leap frog you. But let's ask honestly, would you care if you lost #1 because IL lets say matched your dedication and got a bugged win?

As for 2nd group: IL, Triton, Shadows. ROI has been ahead for so long and by enough. That the biggest battle has been for second place. Do you think your guild would be happy if you found out you got passed on first win because someone else gets a Bugged win on event 5? And it never was corrected?

Talk about Darned if you try to correct, Darned if you don't. Let me ask you straight up.
If one of your rivals in this group got a bugged win on Event 5 and it was listed for 2nd, wouldn't you want it taken down?

As for 3rd Group: There's always cache and push for rounding out top 5. That's still in play. I'm sure ROV and MS and Silent all want to finish and say "We're top 5" (Technically 2nd is still in play but thats a heck of a lead 2nd group has)

As for 4th group: There's always cache for Top 10. One of my first major memories was when my guild at the time broke into Top 10. A first for our server.

Even after Top 10, there's Server Crown's people shoot for.
Best on Xegony is taken. Best on Bertox might play out past the top 10.

I perfectly agree that Logs are a bad idea, and that it shouldnt be removable that said, I think you all are blowing Smoke to the general populace if you try and tell me you wouldn't care if someone passed you because of Bugged wins.

Heck, the reason guilds like ROI exist and thrive, all top guilds, is because of Competitive Nature of the people in them. So quit with the blame game. Or blame Sony.

I'd like to know the list is accurate. Now the question is what's a fair, easy way to do so, or do we just say "meh" and accept that it might not be.

And even this is a problem because there's no way to really tell who would be in current 5th between MS and ROV.

ROV beat event 2 1 day sooner.
ROV beat event 3 8 days sooner

And you can't simply subtract 9-10 days of fake lockouts. Because who knows how many of those days MS really could have fielded a raid force.

Now in the end, perhaps the biggest thing as I'm thinking allowed is that EGL could have just called it a wash on Events 2-3-4 since what really matters is Event 5.

And if someone gets a bugged win, but then can't back it up, the time between thier next kill will be exposed.

Has anyone seen a Bugged Win Spawn on Event 5?

If bugged wins are connected to the FV dying script, they shouldn't be possible in arx5. FV gets HP locked for that event so she can't die.

From 4 or 5 wipes, plus 3 wins,, arx5 seems to roughly be working correctly.

We beat Arx4 tonight, no bugs at all on win or chest.

Of course people want bugged wins removed. The method of assessing the validity of the wins is silly and, for the majority of the guilds claiming these kills, totally unnecessary.

People are trying to use a guild that submitted a bugged kill as an example of why the log type idea is necessary; I contend that it's a reason why this type of verification is not necessary. Let people submit the kills. Too many members in each guild with too many friends in too many other guilds to not have the info about a bugged kill slip.

Let's not kid people.

SOE did not require players to put private logs in the hands of other players in order to be listed "accurately" on a not owned by SOE raid guild progression website, EGL did.

Further there has been a looooong history of leading edge guilds running into bugged events with some finding work arounds and claiming a victory and others not finding them and as a result being placed later.

Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you. Broken events have influenced time of completion as far back as I can remember. As have illegitimate wins dealt with by SOE and subsequently recognized by players as not wins.

But in all the bbbut it was broken, placement shouldn't count (because we didn't do well) hand wringing lets not lose sight of the facts that:
Not listing serverwide progression leaders when SOE has not questioned the legitimacy of their wins is inaccurate, not more accurate.

Demanding logs is not going to achieve its stated goal. Its bad practice and its even worse precedent.

Gotta agree.

No guild raid progression list can deal with woulda, shoulda, coulda wins. They have to deal with wins. Not what a random group of players decides properly constitutes a win but what the publisher calls a win. Not a fantasy competition on an ideally manicured racetrack, but on the actual racetrack with its roots, holes, etc. that in the best of all possible worlds shouldn't be there but are.

I think people understand that as clearly as they understand that the logs or get purged ultimatum is horse pucky.

You can put an asterisk for the entire event, but anything more is just making assumptions, as there's now way to undo a bugged win.

Yes. It wouldn't stop people from claiming it was skill and not pure luck. Thankfully, that hasn't happened since CT leapfrogged triality at the end of SoD, and you also lose server first titles, etc.

Reverse the question: would RoI not count as being #1 if an event bugged to win, then multiple other guilds beat it during lockout? People would be on here making the argument that RoI didn't deserve #1 anymore, and they'd have a point. Why bother ranking if what really counts is public opinion beforehand?

The only ways to mitigate this are A: properly debug raids in beta, and B: make endgame sufficiently hard that #1 isn't a matter of minutes like it was in CoTF. That brings up another question, would MS be #1 guild in game had they completed CoTF 15 minutes sooner? It would according to the kill list, while completely ignoring the fact it took them 3 months longer to beat Plane of War.

It's the amount of micromanagement that's turned the whole list into a sham.

Look we keep arguing Circles.

If we could create Polls on this forum. Or if you create a Poll on your Own Guild Forum

Poll 1) Is turning Logs a good idea, okay, or horrible idea.
The horrible idea option would win both on your guild forum, and I strongly suspect here.

Poll 2) Would you care if (Guild Behind you) got a bugged win and passed on us rankings. Yes/No
I suspect the Yes would win. ((Especially if it was a guild on same server and cost you a perm title))

Poll 3) Do you want an Accurate List of when people killed events, or just a list of reporting dates that include bugged chest wins I suspect the Accurate List would win.

Now in end, all of this is going to fade as the December Patch fixes the event it seems + I'm glad to hear ROI report that Event 5 doesnt follow the same format so the end list of Event 5 will be accurate.

I'm not the one thowing smoke at simple stuff.

1. It's SOE's job to ensure that events are not won through exploitation or won much more easily than ever could be intended because they are bugged.

2. It's SOE's job to make sure events are not lost because they are bugged.

3. It's SOE's job to remove rewards unfairly won and rewards are provided when rewards are fairly won (given SOE's standards).

4. It's the job of accurate guild raid progression sites to reflect wins that SOE lets stand as wins. Not shoulda woulda coulda wins. Not if there were no bugs or "only" because the design was what ir was wins. Wins.

Got hard evidence that RoI is not the gamewide progression leader?
Well then Chumley - you have no bussiness purging them from your inaccurate third part guild raid progression site then do you.

Got suspicions? Forward them to SOE. When I see SOE provide Earrings of Sad Exploitation - sackcloth and ashes - then you have a reason to change things.

If #4 is too much of a challenge given SOE doesn't necessarily provide certified tracking information and websites are vulnerable to 60 people keeping mum about auto win accidents and exploitations (something that's NEVER happened to my knowledge in the history of EQ) then that's what it is.

When people have beaten or are about to beat event 5 and you have to beat predecessor content 10 times to even see event 5 I think questioning event 3 without evidence or SOE pulling back wins is pretty much by the wayside.

Coruth, not sure what your point here is bud. Im not seeing anyone argue here bout who is 1 2 3 4 5 etc. And yea I agree with you bout someone getting in there with a bugged win is cow dunk. BUT your particulars on how intelligent people here are talking is what I question. WHAT people here are screaming about imo is having LEGIT wins REMOVED for not having submitted full logs of said event which is against ANY policy of any working raid guild THAT I m aware of.

IDK maybe its me but that's what i see and asking for full logs of event or have win removed is clown shoes as previously stated. Should something be done or try to be done to have crap wins removed? yeah I m down with that but to remove the legit wins because of remiss submitted logs aint the answer either and thats what is setting people off here.

Public and personal opinions are always the only thing that count. The point of tracking wins is simply to compile the information to provide a basis to form those opinions.

Is raiding at 3am eastern better than raiding at 7pm eastern? 3am is sooner, I learned that in kindergarten but it's simply an opinion if it's better. Is raiding at 2pm eastern on a weekday better than raiding at 7pm eastern? Very commonly if you live in Europe since 7pm eastern is around midnight not so much for people in North America with daytime jobs.

Sure, a simple opinion is that if 2 guilds raid at 3am those are #1 and #2 (assuming they win), the guild raiding at 2pm is #3 (assuming they win) but provided you have a brain you're capable of forming an opinion and can consider something like: http://www.pikeys.net/news/2014/10/20/a-quick-addendum/

Of course you can also be of the opinion that means you would never want to join D'Pikey since the sole purpose of raids is to be completed as little time as possible to get back to the GGH to complain about how there is nothing to do in CotF.

If someone is only going to base their opinion on time stamps that are approved by Mykaylla only on the raids one website chooses to list my opinion is that the person is extremely ignorant and I quite frankly don't care what opinion they possess. It's cute the same way it's cute if a 3 year old can point out which ball is bigger but if you're over 3 there are higher expectations on your evaluation skills.

To finish 3rd overall is a good thing - Posted 21 days before beating all permanent raids released during CotF based on being the 3rd guild to complete a specific and fairly simple raid largely because the guild raided sooner than all but 2 other guilds.

proven again that no feat is tough for us to over come - well except the raid that you didn't beat until 48 days after that update

Expecting people to behave better than 3 year olds on the internet is pushing your luck.

http://www.ringofvalor.org/ - 5th server wide to complete the events, factually correct based on available information as opposed to the trope about being the #5 guild.

It can certainly happen, it's not hard to accurately state the progress of your guild, just don't expect it.

If Quarken makes another update this year (possible, but don't expect that) and wants to present information to clearly point out why RoI is the #1 guild it would include lockout timers showing how quickly 6 TDS raids are beaten, could even start the night with PoWar or something and show how fast all 7 TDS raids are beaten. Post up TDS Vanquisher progress or completion.

Some 3 year olds might downgrade RoI to the #2 guild if some new raid comes out and another guild beats it 37 seconds sooner but there are ample reasons to still consider RoI the #1 guild if that happens and reasonably intelligent people should be able to grasp "2nd guild to beat Trakanon 2.0 raid" and "#1 guild".

Starting as soon as one second after midnight Friday, the 12th of December Hawaii time should EGL wipe legitimate kills allowed to stand by SOE from the progression board...
...will that board be less or more accurate?

It will be less accurate.

SOE determines that guilds have or do not have the 10/10 flags needed to advance to this expansion's Super Bowl. Not player run fan sites. SOE decides if a win is a win.

It's the proper job of player run guild progression sites to report what officials count as a win. If extracting that information is overly difficult (pretending you won when you didn't or saying you won Tuesday when you won Thursday will inevitably be revealed), that's something player run fan sites need to take up with the official scorekeepers.

Incase you all didn't realize it by now it's just a game!

Just saying.

http://pardeevillewatermelonfestival.com/results.html

It's quite common for people to keep track of and rank the results of games.

The tone / method was bad. The motives were good.

If you asked most high end raiders, would they like Ranking System to be accurate & bugged wins removed I bet you, most of people would say yes.

I even bet that people like Battleaxe who say accuracy doesn't matter on fan sites, would be the minority in his own guild. Especially if SOD gets a bugged win a Event 5 and passes his guild with 20 people. ((Total Hypothetical as 1 it doesnt seem possible and 2 SOD wouldnt report the win))

But I keep seeing people bashing someone who really was trying to do what I believe the vast majority of people would want, keep an accurate list.

I almost wish the first reply to this thread was Simply:

"I appreciate you are trying to keep an accurate list for us, but because of Sony's bugs its just not possible and we will live with the bugged list. The idea of logs is unacceptable invasion of privacy of our members. Please either find a better way, or just chill and don't worry about accuracy. Sony should've fixed the reported bugs.

That's a blatant misrepresentation of what I am saying.

SOE is the determining authority of whether an effort is a win or not. They and only they can suspend guilds for exploitation, take away loot or flags, reset lockouts or not reset lockouts, etc. You want accuracy you reflect what SOE says.

Now, AFAIK RoI has legitimately beaten TDS with the dates of their first kills being fact and not opinion. Not only are players not the judge and jury, afaik no one has disputed this, no one has sent SOE information to the contrary, and no one has claimed SOE has rolled back a claimed RoI win.

Do I check Fred's Bar to see who won the Super Bowl? Sure, if and only if Fred's Bar agrees with the NFL Commissioners Office (the people who make the game rules). Is Fred's Bar an official investigatory arm of the Commissioners office entitled to demand documents and forward them to the NFL? No sir they are not. Much less substitute their judgement for official judgement.

Starting as soon as one second after midnight Friday, the 12th of December Hawaii time should EGL wipe legitimate kills allowed to stand by SOE from the progression board...
...will that board be less or more accurate?

It will be less accurate.

Who wants accuracy? I do. In lock step with the officials that make the game rules accuracy.

According to the OP, EGL does not want accuracy. Purging what no one disputes are legitimate kills is iron clad proof of that. What EGL wants is private logs.

Im not certain you have Battle in the correct tense at all, but I m thinking it rubbed ALOT , including myself , the wrong way with the statement of saying WINS would be stripped if logs were not submitted. Don't believe holding a gun to the heads of valid victories to break guild policies is the answer either, when logs can easily be manipulated to begin with.

In retrospect I'm kinda glad EGL over reached and is disqualifying itself as a resource where you can find out who actually leads in guild raid progression.

It was setting up a precedent by which players associated with it could demand logs for every win in the future in order to be listed and use logbooks to discourage any raid practice to any degree they wanted (use of charmed mobs, pets tanking, summon tanking, kiting, Wizards being too $$$).

Yeah, they'll get some information they'll be able to use but as soon as its known their list is not in fact accurate their day and their fishing expedition (for the good of the game of course) is done.

I'm quite comfortable with actual game officials being able to look over the shoulders of guilds, read their chat, examine their tactics, etc. Players however should not be able to wield that kind of abuseble power.