TDS Raid Event 3: Principal Vicarum Nomia - Progression!

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mykaylla, Dec 2, 2014.

  1. Coruth Augur


    Dedication doesn't just mean raiding though on Off-hours.
    Dedication means raiding on off-normal days.

    Current EQ is a 2 day a week, or 3 day a week farm experience. Long gone are the top guilds who raided 4-5-6 days a week. Partly a factor not enough content, Partly the fact the average player age is skewed older.

    IL beat Event 4: 11/23 (2nd) -- 10 days after event 3
    Triton beat Event 4: 11/25 (3rd) --- 9 days after event 3
    Shadows beat Event 4: 11/30 (4th) -- 13 days after event 3

    Being within 1 week of each other. Is there any way to tell, which guild actually beat Event 4 in the smallest number of attempts?

    We can go by the dates to say IL won before Triton before Shadows.

    But we have never had any way of telling if Triton didn't before shadows, because Shadows took off for Thanksgiving sooner. Or if Triton tried event 4 6 out of 9 days, while Shadows weren't as dedicated but only tried 3 days out of 13. And IL tried 8 our of 10.

    This isn't a New Issue incidently. It's always been a flaw of the way we rank guilds.

    That unless you are Way ahead of another group, like ROI is.
    Or IL/Triton/Shadows are to next group. ROV/MS/Silent. it's hard to know unless the game ever implemented an LON style "win and loss" counter.
  2. Kiillz Augur

    my point was not the amount of attempts or not or who beat who. I questioned you questioning OTHERS dedication. We in Triton have raided on off days, off times per say? to get the event when up to get all the keys required to progress and move on. No we didnt raid 3am in the morning, or miss the birth of children to get the event down, but does that make us or any other guild that did not raid at 3 in the morning any less dedicated to progressing and getting it done?

    I just beg to differ on what your calling dedication. Again no knock on ROI god bless em for doing it when they did, but I dont believe that made anyone else who DIDNT raid at 3 in the morning but hit the event as hard as they did any less dedicated.
  3. Maeryn Augur

    Right and it has nothing to do with sending Mykaylla log files or the price of tea in China. If there is inaccurate public information and 50ish people have first hand information it's wrong there is a really good chance that it will be corrected.

    Praetor Vitio

    1. Realm of Insanity - 11/12/2014
    2. Triton - 11/23/2014
    3. Ring of Valor - 11/24/2014
    4. Fire and Fury - 12/01/2014

    If Fire and Fury didn't really beat the event and just stuck their name on a list to attempt to boost recruitment profile or something there is a really good chance even though the guild leader of FnF is a complete halfling that one person in the guild would come forward directly and point out that it's wrong and they haven't beaten the event.

    I'm not going to ask those guilds to send me logs before the hyper specific Dec 13th 3am pst or I will delete their win. That would be clown shoes, if one or more of those guilds didn't actually beat the event the information will come out without making any effort or reading anyone's logs.

    Btw, Shadows probably didn't take much time off for Thanksgiving since no one sailed across the ocean to feed the Europeans.

    Btw, Realm of Insanity wiped to Plane of War a lot, if you rate them anything except #1 on Plane of War based on number of losses or any other reason that would simply be insane.
  4. Apoc Augur

    It took SoD 10 total days (fri,sat off)to do 2-4 being that we didnt attempt 2 until the sunday we beat it. I am from the US and i did celebrate thanksgiving but did log in and attempt it twice. For me raiding is rough being that i work 230-11 est mon - fri so i only have minimal attempts at things. Can i put up the same numbers as an RoI wizard most likely. I Just hope i dont get bored of this game soon since there is little content i have already started playing WoW and League of Legends between raids. Im still waiting on that monthly raid content and i hope they do something soon to keep the attention of raiders.
  5. Coruth Augur

    Your totally reversing and missing what I am saying.

    Triton is a Dedicated Guild. And I mean that as a complete compliment.

    I was saying the Difference Between 3 Guilds who beat an Event within a week of each other is a combo of Dedication and Skill.

    IL beat Event 4 before Triton. Triton might be more skilled (won in less attempts) but IL was more dedicated to raid every day 10 or raid when thier "1/2" day timer was up. Or maybe IL actually was much more skilled but not as dedicated and it took them 5 of thier 10 days to get a full 54 into event 4. So if 54 IL's player base had logged on more dedicated they'd have a bigger lead on Triton.

    Dedication = Compliment. There aren't as many hard cores as their used to be.
    Skill = Compliment.

    The problem with rankings straight by kill date, is there no way to know which of those reasons someone came out.... when they are close....

    It's pretty easy to say ROI --- IL/Triton/Shadows --- ROV/MS/Silent --- whole bunch


    Complete Apples and Oranges. ROI beat a prenerfed version that no one else did. They'd be #1 by a mile.
    Now in a total fantasy land hypothetical. If they had left in prenerfed version as a requestible hard mode. And IL came along and beat the same prenerf war (at the same level 100) in half the attempts. It would be an interesting debate to have and wonder if IL got some spoiler advice. Or if they just once they got around to bothering with war, kicked its butt faster. But that kind of stuff goes back to that thread I talked about for "ROF" as a college football season.
    The problem with Ranking Guild's is that it's hard to tell the "Close" tiers.
  6. Coruth Augur

    On a side note, I agree. But I don't think Mykaylla was doing anything wrong.

    People on this thread are being unnecessarily critical. All she did was notice because of Sony and stupid stupid bugs that are making fake wins. There needs to be some way of correcting errors.

    She came up with a way, logs, that makes complete sense. Im willing to bet her motives were good.

    There just had to be a better way of doing it, considering how much people wouldnt want to leak thier logs and any potentially sensitive info.

    And it wasn't fair the amount of Flak people have been tossing at Mykaylla for attempting to fix a situtation that wasn't her fault, and was EQs.
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  7. Iila Augur

    The fact that multiple raids that went Live 5 weeks ago are still wiping into wins after having the problems reported on beta is something guild leaderboards have never had to deal with. As far as I know, the other times that problem has come up 'recently', it was too rare or hard to reproduce to really worry about.

    We got 7 raids in this expansion
    1 is severely overtuned
    3 have had wipes turn into wins (maybe the 4th as well?)
    4 can cause your loot chest to poof
    1 would respawn every 40 minutes
    1 is well tuned, working correctly, and even fun

    Even by our continuously lowered standards, this is awful.
    Silentchaos, guado, Marton and 2 others like this.
  8. Hatsee Augur

    What a strange thread. Asking for logs is a poor way to confirm things simply because you can edit them, a screenshot of you dancing on the corpse of the boss is better. Probably. But she is doing what she can as simply as possible which is fine. Although it definitely fed the conspiracy theories.

    However I have to ask what super secret strat are people worried about leaking? You kill adds, you kill a boss a few times, you dodge a big white goo that makes no sense why it's there, you deal with totems... That's the event.
  9. Coruth Augur


    Not to mention for the last what 3 betas? There have been vary detailed write ups on beta on what supposed to happen. + Factor in Achievements give huge hints. And I think the days of being surprised or figuring out too much are pretty limited.

    Execution City Now a days.

    Well that and it seems all these events are about surviving/controlling the first 30 seconds of a phase transition.
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  10. Lifeshriek Elder

    A modest proposal: can use this if we want instead
    [IMG]
    Marike and Battleaxe like this.
  11. Battleaxe Augur

    You mean like it already was corrected in the case of one guild with no logs involved? Indeed.

    This isn't about accuracy. Its just as inaccurate to not reflect an actual win as to credit one that did not happen.
  12. Deillusional Augur

    We didnt really raid (we tried some but it was with 44 people or so) for thanks giving, we had very few members online as believe it or not we have americans such as apoc in our guild. We got one off 2 on sunday (11-30-2014) the same day as we won Lucia, as we were working on 2-4 in this time frame. Throughout the expansion we have kept to our normal raid days (Sun-Thu), as the flagging is bogus in the expansion, we cant afford to have that many unflagged ok, we could probably kill 1,2,3 with 40 people which we would get on a friday but having 14 non flags it be would be a bad idea having only 40 flagged for raid 5. So we might take the normal raid days off, where as other guilds don't (as they posted in the page), but hopefully we should have close to possible 54 flagged when were are 12/12. for the final raid of the expansion. However, every guild is going to run in to trouble with flags and member turn over with such a low number of raids in the expansion. Devs please throw us a bone and give us a raid every month or every couple of months to keep us entertained. That not to say that we probably would have to raid this crap for 90 weeks to get 60 members or so 25 spell runes. (Not counting for duplicates).
  13. Bigstomp Augur

    I think most guilds, at least the upper guilds have enough upstanding members even without logs or anything, they would not report a 'fail win' as a win without some serious internal strife followed by the word leaking out anyway. We may be somewhat competitive, but we all want to win legit.
  14. Raynrace Augur

    Have to agree with Bigstomp. We got the fake win on event 2 our 2nd attempt. 4 days later after our lockout was finally cleared by a GM we beat it on attempt 4 counting the first 2 but the fake win was not reported as a win. It caused mass turmoil and I have no doubt many in the guild would have been very vocal if we did with some even leaving the guild over it.

    As far as dedication vs skill I think RoV is absolutely dedicated but we don't chase the rank down like some. We raid Sun and Mon and I believe we did 1 or 2 Wed runs to speed up keying.

    Raid 1 we won first attempt but we got to test it in beta.
    Raid 2 we won 4th attempt over 2 raid nights separated by 4 days. Never tested.(only raid that bugged a win)
    Raid 3 we won maybe 9th or 10th attempt over 3 raid nights but not full nights. Never tested.
    Raid 4 we have wiped probably 10 times over 2 raid nights but not full nights. We left to farm War and T2. Never tested and very close to winning.

    Off raid 2 we won first attempt without a full raid but we tested it once in beta.
    Off raid 1 we tested only mechanics in beta with dumbed down dmg output and as of today don't even care to try to win it.

    Dedication level may seem we don't care about our ranking but we do. We just aren't going to make EQ a priority over life.
    I believe we are skilled players but there's one thing I haven't seen taken into account and that's beta testing. If you look at what I put above you'll see the 2 first attempt wins came from raids we got to test in beta.

    With that said most are not on a level playing field when it comes to ranking. There are more factors in play.

    Some guilds live in beta some like us only test what a dev asks us to test and some don't do beta at all.

    Regardless the winner will be the guild dedicated to test and learn strats before live and will log in at preset times no matter the day to key and flag as fast as possible 999 times out of 1000.

    There is nothing wrong with this and it is not against any rules whatsoever. It doesn't diminish skill at all it just means they want it more than the rest of us.

    I would love to see a ranking system that includes number of attempts and also adds a penalty if it was beta tested. But really at that point aren't we going a little overboard? It serves it's purpose in that people who are looking for a good guild can see it there.

    Top 10 guilds minus ROI are pretty much cutting edge guilds. ROI just wants it more than the rest do.
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  15. Maeryn Augur

    I think that Aahz, Aallayena, Adanted, Aliano, Arrowheade, Ashten, Axxius, Battleaxe, Brenenn, Bristiladd, Bryender, Buddy, Costa, Dahoe, Doranekx, Dougi, Dped, Draginn, Dreamrider, Dropfast, Dueceduece, Eanelder, Exitor, Ghrymm, Goliath, Guado, Hating, Inhibin, Issk, Jefe, Jheckle, Kailihn, Kiillz, Krazzi, Lanadili, Lilbadaz, Lonye, Loschy, Lvana, Necreta, Nilweanx, Nudia, Nyssa, Penodor, Prince, Qelien, Quinum, Ramstein, Repthor, Rivitt, Scire, Senthiele, Shadowgleam, Siena, Smokn, Spitzy, Stoner, Toetoe, Tollean, Vilem, Weetea, Xoyou, Zflik and Zigie are all part of a huge conspiracy in order to appear to be the 3rd guild to beat Arx3 when in fact you didn't legitimately beat the event before SoD and may not have even beaten the raid legitimately yet and unless I get a log file that satisfies my investigation I will delete your progress on EGL.

    Nothing wrong with that?

    Just because it's phrased differently doesn't change the message. Mykaylla thinks it's nothing but Rogues and Scoundrels in Triton, only 2 Rogues so must be 62 Scoundrels. Simply saying "no really, we beat Arx3 legit" isn't enough.
    Sathayorn likes this.
  16. Maeryn Augur

    But that's no longer a ranking system, it's just data, very useful data for people thinking about changing raid guilds or joining one.

    Raid Attendance (RoV raids Sunday & Monday from 7pm-11pm CST and some Wednesdays depending on available raid targets and for learning new events. Raid days may be altered to down content fast.

    And then what do you win would be the other information. That also "We left to farm War and T2" is relevant information, while Inverse Logic hasn't done a non-TDS raid since Nov 11th:

    http://il-guild.com/dkp/listraids.php?s=7ccc0150c5f11b21222f864bb900b798

    There is no reasonable method to rank Inverse beating every TDS progression raid before RoV but RoV getting a better loot haul. Which of course gets to the next subjective part which makes ranking impossible, if someone fully T2 geared left SoD because they could no longer raid Euro hours Inverse is getting a better loot haul from their perspective.

    First in the rankings no matter how you do them is RoI, it's just a silly level of dominance.

    1. Realm of Insanity - less than 3 hours to beat 7 TDS raids, optional raid on Wednesday

    Yes there have been a couple of weeks where "dying every day to pre-nerf PoWar" and "being stalked by Kreacher on Beta" other guilds had arguably better weeks but the rest of the weeks they beat more raids in less time on top of beating almost every event before every other guild.

    For RoV and other clearly high end guilds whatever you are doing works so keep doing that and congratulations.

    For other guilds you might want to put basic information about how many hours you raid and what targets you typically beat in recruitment posts and keep it updated. Some guilds have public DKP which provides detailed information about raids to potential apps and anyone else who is interested.

    There are no right or wrong answers, check out some web pages or talk to people in the guild you are considering joining and you will find that some of them spend time weekly on Tita's Ghost, there are 4 options for the raid at present and which is best of 2-4 is purely subjective:
    1. Realm of Insanity
    2. Unconventional tactics for at least the later stage(s) of the event
    3. Dying once a week to the event
    4. Avoiding the event until/if it's patched
    If your recruitment post on this board and/or your website lets people know how often you beat PoWar, CotF T2, Ghost or even T1 or PoShadow (Shawl drop) and how many hours you raid in a typical week it will help attract people to your guild that match your priorities and those are the people that are more likely to stay.

    Someone with alts they would like to have raid geared could well see "10 hours a week, yadda yadda, usually around four CotF T1 raids weekly" as better than "8 hours a week, exact same yadda yadda, CotF T1 only if we encounter flagging issues" while others would prefer the 8 hour guild all else being equal.

    Way back in VoA and earlier lavanet/EGL had pretty much all the relevant information for someone to create a short list of guilds that were likely a good fit and then do appropriate research on a handful of guilds or pick a name out of a hat and apply.

    Starting with RoF and you get splits that can't be objectively ranked. "We farm Vulak weekly" and "We don't waste our time in ToV". "Achievements suck." and "We work on a couple of ach each week while farming T2 so when we eventually beat them people will have the CFear to buy the chase items."

    If you're still presenting information about your guild like you were before Gangnam Style was released you might want to check the calender. Of course if you're beating a bunch of TDS raids it really doesn't matter if you still require an AOL account to sign up for your website, whatever you are doing clearly works.
  17. Raynrace Augur

    The discussion had turned to skill and dedication on top of the OP. I was just pointing out that beta testing is a massive bonus when raids go live and it is not part of it. Some learn in beta some learn in live.

    It wasn't about recruiting. Beta time isn't considered. My post showed that with first attempt wins on 2 raids.

    These raids are much harder when you don't have developer info from beta saying this is what happens in this raid and test time from beta.

    Can you imagine trying Arx2 with 0 info? That would be fun to learn.

    That's all I'm saying.
  18. Nudia Augur

    You caught me... :(

    I have the exact time of the boss' alleged death as 4 seconds LATER than our reported time of 2014-11-16 @ 20:35:32. Clearly, we need to get better at synchronizing our conspiracy - merely accounting for time zones is not enough. At least tell me, was this discrepancy how you found us out?
    Kiillz likes this.
  19. Maeryn Augur

    The 4 seconds and lack of front page update were suspicious but then I realized the "worst" case of playing along with the conspiracy would be Axxius making a "shocking expose" like the everyone cheats Triality update. Does anyone have a link to that rant? Staying true to their EQ roots "coming soon" means no updates in over 13 months.

    Principal Vicarum Nomia

    1. Realm of Insanity - 11/12/2014
    2. Inverse Logic - 11/13/2014
    ​3. Triton - 11/16/2014
    4. Shadows of Doom - 11/17/2014
    5. Ring of Valor - 11/30/2014
    6. Descendents - 12/04/2014

    Principal Quastori Numicia

    1. Realm of Insanity - 11/12/2014
    2. Inverse Logic - 11/13/2014
    3. Triton - 11/14/2014
    4. Shadows of Doom - 11/16/2014
    5. *Ring of Valor - 11/23/2014
    6. Machin Shin - 11/24/2014
    7. Silent Redemption - 12/02/2014

    *2nd wins, 1st wins were from a bug so 5 fewer days to work on the raid

    I got a PM and even if there wasn't a front page update to back it up I would have listed Descendents as beating Arx3 but not Arx2 as that's how they choose to present the progress of their guild.

    Doctor Arroway, you come to us with no evidence, no record, no artifacts. Only a story that to put it mildly strains credibility. Over half a trillion dollars was spent, dozens of lives were lost. Are you really going to sit there and tell us we should just take this all... on faith?

    That's a good question, since I spent a lot less than half a trillion dollars and no lives were lost I'm just going to take it on faith and keep an eye on the New York Times' Bestseller list for "4 Seconds, The Real Story".
  20. Kiillz Augur

    omg wait.......there was a conspiracy and Axxius never told me??? ahh hell.

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