Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Nenton, Dec 9, 2014.
2 wizard alone should sustain more than 116k dps!
Thanks for the responses. I wasn't trying to get the raid tuned down. I just wanted to confirm my suspicion about how few mobs we're killing compared to other guilds.
I sustained a literal quarter of our dps as a necro on low hp mobs which is why I entitled this thread "dps woes."
I've read a lot of people on these boards analyze mid tier guilds succinctly. A few good/great people trying to carry the load of a bunch of people who don't particularly care about their performance whether that be healing, dps, emotes. That's all well and good until you run into a dps-check raid which happens to be the first in a new expansion.
We've done some pretty amazing things with tiny numbers but the time limit on this raid precludes the strategy of lots of tanks and healers and a handful of dps'ers with a clue. I don't know that Arx 1 is unbeatable by us but it's certainly going to be a uphill battle.
If taking off the time limit is asking for a tune down then maybe I am actually for that type of tune down. Absor got mad during beta when people were kiting his event around endlessly but instead of just sticking with anti-kite mechanics he went with a hard time limit as well which disproportionately effects non-high tier guilds.
Anyway, I was just trying to get some information.
I'd argue it's mostly not a dps check event though. When we first beat this we were going for what felt like ages, with a lot of deaths and some woeful dps, but it didn't time out so I guess we had enough. (Anyone know the exact timer length and from what message it counts from?)
Ultimately what made the difference between wipes and wins wasn't dps, but tanking and CC. In our case specifically the tanking. Tanks need to be FAST to catch the mobs and to not dilly dally from one mob to the next. You can halve your dps on packs of mobs if the tanks take an age moving from one pack to the next, or have truely rubbish agro causing dps to keep backing off. They need to make sure they preagro the next mob we're about to kill, have high agro on it so dps can switch and keep the dps high, and to switch instantly. I'm sure it was that rather than our dps improving that won the event.
Err, you can send your tanks ahead to get aggro early. I mean while you do the first one your tanks are off building aggro on the other groups.
It's really just CC.
I know a lot of folks are opposed to the idea but I've been wondering for the last year or two if SOE should consider designing raid content for 36 people rather than 54. It would make it a lot easier for folks to field a full, competent raid.
I know many of the raid guilds (mine included) can field a full raid but be honest: It gets harder every year to keep a full roster. It'd be a lot less pressure on people if 6 groups was enough to do the content (by design). Guilds that manage to have 100+ people on can do the event(s) 3 times.
Timed events with multiple periods of invulnerability. Great idea.
Right, it's a business, it always does. If you want to be a successful business you're pro-active in dealing with customer concerns. You don't wait until there are 30 active raiding guilds left in current content, you take steps so it doesn't reach that point.
Top 15 or 20 guilds: Instead of beating a trivial raid to start most of the next 40-45 raid weeks it will be a really trivial raid so the usual suspects from those guilds will complain because that's what the usual suspects always do. If you genuinely want it to be harder split raid it, twice as much loot (ears and spells relevant for mains) and the challenge you claim to crave.
Next 15 or 20 guilds: The raid provides ~3% of the currency for an item, Gloves people will already have and while you might be seeing good turnouts atm, when it's the 20th, 30th and 40th win you're going to have people waiting an extra half hour to log on since they won't miss anything and if you could easily replace those people for often skipping the first raid you would be in the first category not this one.
Next 15 or 20 guilds: Tuning is about right relative to these guilds if only it didn't have to be the first Arx raid every week. Bad turnout of Enc/Bard today, lets go do xxx from a previous expansion and hope a couple log on and other people don't get magically busy RL once the non-TDS target is called next March/June/Sept. If you could easily replace people who camp because it's a non-TDS target you wouldn't be in this category.
Next 15 or 20 guilds: Large rosters, low attendance rates, high turnover, reliably beating the first raid would be hugely valuable to get to post "on Wednesday we will be beating Arx1" and you'll most likely have a good turnout on that day which makes it even more likely for that to come true. In the current state it's "on Wednesday we will be attempting Arx1" and once again inability to easily replace people who only log on for easy loot raids isn't an option or the guild wouldn't be in this category.
It really doesn't matter that in theory guilds "should" be fielding a force at worst in the 2nd grouping and that in theory 3-5 guilds could be 2-4 raid forces retaining the same number of customers since you're dealing with humans and not robots and joint raids let alone merges isn't as simple as "hey we are having trouble with first raid", "us too", "lets raid together", "ok".
What matters is around 40% of the guilds who reported a high level of CotF raid progress to EGL haven't reported any raid progress to EGL and really good chance that guilds that don't report have an even lower success rate in TDS since other than Freelance unless there is a really stealthy guild out there none of the other non-reporting guilds are in either of the first two categories.
That's a great story and all, but even the OP said, if you read it, he/she wasn't asking for raids to be tuned down, just wanted to know where they stood. So all this hot air about customer retention is waaaaaaay out in left field. Instead of assuming failure and customer retention in a thread that has nothing to do with any of those things, maybe you could contribute something to the thread instead of doomsday prophecy. The reason there are differences between guilds, is because we aren't all at the same place in progression, and that's fine, nothing wrong with that. I'm pretty sure they have someone they pay a lot of money to make business decisions, and I'm pretty sure it isn't you. Do I always agree with them, no I do not, but Sony is a multi-billion dollar business that seems to be doing ok for itself. Direct those comments to a thread that addresses that topic, or to the head of that department with Sony, not in a thread that is simply trying to find out where they are fitting in, and if there is more that their guild can do to change it, which we found was exactly the case.
There are a lot of guilds period that haven't reported much progress to EGL, and that could be for a number of reasons, including Thanksgiving/Christmas holidays. TBH, I see more guilds you would not normally see on there this year, than in previous. So post all the statistics that you want, it's far too early for any of it to be of real use yet, expac has been out what, little over a month? I hardly find that to be sufficient time for guilds who were struggling with CotF to be progressing into TDS.
Actually, it does matter that they should be fielding a full raid force. Also, if they want to be successful in that content, and otherwise cannot field the numbers, then yes, they need to either form an alliance or recruit/find players. I understand the game is not the same as it was when it began or even 8-10 years ago, but it is possible.
I think the overwhelming idea behind why this was a bad idea, was that while it allows some to field a "full" raid, it also alienates some from people who can field 54 or right around that. So you're not gaining anything by doing so, I would think in the end it would actually be worse for the game/problem it's attempting to solve. Even if a guild has 72 (or 100 w/e) doesn't mean the class breakdown is correct to do those events 3 times. In all likely hood, the lockouts one group gets will adversely affect the remainder. Raids are not as difficult as they once were already, which should allow people, especially with the extra 5 levels, to progress through last expansions raid content.
What is a high level of CoTF raid progress? There were 36 guilds who beat tower of rot according to EGL which is the first raid in T2.
29 guilds have beaten the first Arx event. So over 80% of the guilds who posted a win for the first CoTF T2 event have also posted a win on a TDS event.
That doesn't seem all that out of line for this early in an expansion, especially a level increase one where events are tuned for max level characters.
Out of sheer curiousity, why exactly are you making four distinct posts in a row? I mean, you could have put them in one post.
Do you constantly forget what you wanted to say and need to keep chucking out addendums? Maybe its upping your post count? Assaulting us with so many separate posts that its near impossible to figure out if/where to respond at? Are you talking to yourself?
Although there aren't any set rules, its kind of a faux pas to fill up a thread like its your own periodic blog, entry after entry after entry. You could have just edited your original post to include all of this stuff, given how close you kept throwing out messages.
Its not that I disagree with you - Everquest has a dwindling player base - we all know it, and simply can't support as many raiding guilds as it once could. There are some that just need to be put out of their misery to end their member's frustration and go casual, or merge (seriously, a name change isn't the worst thing in the world.) I'm just trying to get the method.
I like to party.
While I appreciate the attempt at educating me, it was more that I kept thinking of replies to the post I quoted, I was just too lazy to edit it. When I need advice on how to post again though I'll be sure to PM you! And as you said, since there are no set rules......well.... . No offense meant, I don't even know you (but I kinda like the sig), just I really don't need anyone reprimanding me or educating me on posting on a forum lol. Three were in response to Maeryn (sorry it was just so full of halfling), last one obviously to the quoted post. I will try to do better in the future!
And yes, I created this one instead of requesting a name change on my old account, since it goes by the name of my necro that I haven't played since like 2001, and I wanted to get a few posts on it. It's tiresome I know.
The guild i'm in recently beat this event for the first time after ~ 8 attempts. On the win we killed ~14 mobs before the boss became active, 5 melee and the 2 casters from two sides.
From my experiance I can tell you that the clean break at the 6 min mark is critical. Every mob in phase 2 can be agroed and should be in order to allow enchanters/bards to get them all locked down ASAP and to allow the DPS to be under the mobs to damage them (all melee are belly casters) beyond that its a matter of killing as many mages/healers as you can and getting the rest locked down until phase 3 then its a matter of keeping the locked down going and dealign with the remaining mage(s)/healer(s)
Since the Underfoot "mistake".of 17 out of 72 or 24%
Thule - 40 guilds beat a top tier event before Alaris
30 days into VoA 51 guilds or 128% beat a progression raid
VoA - 43 guilds beat a top tier event before RoF
30 days into RoF 32 guilds or 74% beat a progression raid (Christmas Day is 27th day of RoF)
RoF - 38 guilds beat a top tier event before CotF
30 days into CotF 45 guilds or 118% beat a progression raid
CotF - 43 guilds beat a top tier event before TDS
30 days into TDS 25 guilds or 58% beat a progression raid
up to 30 guilds now (Pandemonium) who report to EGL or 70% in 41 days
Some kind of transition would be really nice while guilds work on those joint raids, merges, recruiting or whatever. Previously suggested sticking 101-103 Runes and soft cap at 105 focus gear on T2 CotF raids, here suggesting nerfing Defense now that it has served it's primary purpose of making RoI take 2 weeks longer to beat the expansion.
Pwnz, if you talk to EVC you can get contact info for Symphony of Arms so you can explain to them how they need to be put of their misery to end their frustration. Because obviously SoA beating every CotF progression raid before TDS was somehow bad for the health of the game.
1) RoV spends 5 minutes less each week on Arx1, SoA can beat Arx1, after a month of wins has a good shot at Vitio without any changes being made to the event and have 2 months to work on how to fill out raids to maintain a new win per month pace.
2) RoV spends 5 more minutes on Arx1 each week, SoA requires more people/luck/etc to win a new raid right now.
Maybe Pwnz is right, but don't try to convince me, get the ventrilo or whatever info from EVC and convince people in SoA. If you're unwilling to talk to SoA about why they should be put of their misery maybe you shouldn't describe that as a "solution" by thinking in terms of a nameless and faceless blob of unworthy guilds and think about whether you're willing to spend 5 less minutes a week on Defense if it would make a big difference for SoA and similar guilds.
If in the spring guilds fold because of being bored of Defense and Vitio and unable to retain/recruit enough people, oh well. I just think the "fair" thing is a reasonable transition from CotF to TDS whether that's in AH, ToRot, JHome, PoWar and/or Defense.
I don't understand how AH, Rot, Void and PoWar are not reasonable transitions to Defense? That event is not hard, and as previously mentioned, has been beaten with a dps curve that was only able to kill the magio/vitali in 2 of three groups within the 6 min time frame. This alone proves it is not a dps thresh hold like Solt 1 was, but more of a CC event. There is a time limit, which if there were anything I could accept as being "needed" (I do not believe anything needs to be changed, other than bugs I think this event is more than fair as the entry level raid) to be altered for this event, but then you have to start analyzing when it become a "free loot" mob because you've allowed it to become something other than what it was intended to be. Defense and Vitio should be the 2 mobs guilds in these positions should target for TDS raids. Farming of the previous mentioned CotF raids, continuing to attempt Defense, and the second you get Defense down, farm Vitio. He drops more loot, and if you can follow simple directions, should be an easy win.
I have absolutely no issue with them nerfing the first raid into a loot pinata. I couldn't care less, really. It was designed for 54 players, and easily accomplished by any competent guild that can actually fill a raid. If they decide to take away timers, or just throw up Aragus as a quick tank-n-spank you can split raid into oblivion, it has no impact on me. I know the pet classes would love more chances at EMXXIII ears, it could be nice.
With that said, I still stand by my original statement. You can try and make this all group hugs, communal circle-jerks, and personalize it, Maeryn, but the truth still exists. As population decreases, the number of raiding guilds the game can sustain decreases. I've seen every raiding guild I once loved and been a part of disappear. Relentless Ascension, Triune, Primal Evolution, Fury's Edge - all the Morell Thule power houses that faded, merged, or fell apart. This is just what happens, and anyone who's been around for a while knows that pain. By the time this game ends, there are only going to be a good handful standing.
If SoA is the next to fold, my sincere apologies to hear that, but it is what it is. I personally wasnt aware they were in such a dire situation, but you know best. I figured maybe they were just a little slower, you know in the 'Erollisi Marr' speed kind of way (no disrespect to E-Marr, you guys just take your time and are more family-oriented raiding environments. Nothing wrong with that.) If you think just *one* more raid for any struggling guild is going to make everything nice and rosy, you're horribly mistaken. But, by all means, tune it down - I don't expect any change in the overall outcome as more proactive guilds poach from the disgruntled members of the ones with real internal struggles/morale issues/et cetera until nothing is left.
Fix the other problems and the dps should go up... BUT one thing you guys should do, start parsing your other raids then talk to the dpsers who suck on multiple raids.
People that suck often don't know they suck but a tell to soandso " Hey soandso, I noticed that you only did 14k dps on the named and your combined dps for the event was even worse, also noticed this happen on other raids. Thatguy's pet does more dps than you we like you but you should be puting out a number between xxxx and yyyy sustained also some people who play your class can put out wwww while burning" Also try to find out how many people are dying because of failed emotes on event one that can hurt dps alot, sadly there;s no shame emote for failing.
It can be hard to approach guild members when you already raid with low numbers but other people parse, the people joining your guild parse. It's very off putting when you join a guild and you see a few people who just do a terrible job every raid. The good news is most classes don't take a lot of knowledge or skill to get to the point where they're doing 90% dps of the most knowledgeable player
The biggest change that would help those who aren't able to smash clear would be the adds instantly summoning whoever happens to be their target as soon as they break root and aren't mezzed.
This basically leads to a missed mez summoning tanks or healers and one august not mezzed for one moment turns it into a coin flip of who is dying next. They already have a an anti kite mechanic, I think the uber 100% summon on break is kind of overly punishing. Compromise, give them a 30 sec delay 100% summon like in BW raid adds or something?
Yes I realize that means it would be easier to gather the mobs into nice ae mez clusters and it is definitely able to be beaten as is, I just don't like the random 100% summons across the event, and eliminating those would help those unable to dps overpower most adds by making a CC plan still needed / crucial, but not the punishment it is atm for one slipped mob.
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