TBL : the most stupid and absurd extension

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Merlein, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. Bumkus Lorekeeper

    one thing that helped me early on if focus on HP. if that means going back and stocking up on hSTA augs from TBM, then so be it. If you can get your whole group over 200K hp, the expansion becomes much more enjoyable. Also, if you have a bard, run your heal boosting songs. They help. It's not always about beating a mob fast. It's about beating the mob period. With all the AE's and damage shields that mobs cast on themselves, you might not be able to swarm with your melee toons as much as you'd like. Once you find a named or mission you can beat reliably, then farm the snot out of it before moving up to next level of challenge.
    Zhaunil_AB and Pirlo like this.
  2. Triconix Augur

    Personally am a huge fan of this expansion. I pretty much hated EoK/RoS as I wasn't even a huge Kunark fan so this is a nice change of atmosphere for me.

    My only complaint is the challenger achievements that don't work. However, that'll eventually get fixed.

    I'd argue EQ takes a different type of skill than those games. You cannot compare an FPS to EQ. Sure, I can go out and consistently achieve 3:1 KD ratios in just about any FPS I've play and that takes a certain amount of skill and is a solid ratio, but EQ is way more involved with other players. FPS games are essentially lone wolf games. They usually don't use any coordination unless you're in a clan or playing professionally.

    EQ has a lot more information packed into it and raw data to comprehend. You need to understand what stacks between over a dozen classes to utilize stuff in the best way possible. FPS requires higher hand-eye coordination and reaction time with very little information gathering.
    Belexes likes this.
  3. Feznik Elder


    Once you figure out that raw data, there isn't much to comprehend in EQ, there is very little variation on how you use your abilities against different scenarios. Sure there might be some changes you have to make, but those changes don't vary that much because nothing in the mob encounters fluctuate that much except raw power.

    FPS might not be the greatest example, if you take DOTA2 which is a MOBA, there are debuffs, buffs etc. Those too have stacking issues, just like EQ does. And those are just the basic mechanics, even if you had 100% knowledge of the basic mechanics in DOTA2, the skill gap between different ranks is huge, this is because the strategy is constantly changing by the second, in EQ you know what to expect once you've figured out the not-so-changing strategy (whether its a group game encounter or raid encounter). You can always apply the same strategy each time with almost zero variation.

    There is only 1 to 5 different ways (maybe a few more, but its very limited number) to obtain your highest DPS output on a raid encounter for example, that is not skill whatsoever once you've learned those 1 to 5 different ways maximize your dps for your class. There is only 1 to 5 different ways to tank different mob encounters etc..

    To go even further, if you have 2 monks and they disc/dps properly there is only 1 way to maximize the dps on a partiicular encounter/scenario. You could measure this, and the only thing that would change is the RNG of their dmg, due to crits. Execution is so easy in EQ once you learn the class, not so much in other games.

    You are not having to constantly think on your feet or focus your abilities in different ways that often in EQ, if that was the case, most players would mass exodus this game. The general population of EQ players is aged range 30 to 50 year old. They want a non-stressful game where they don't have to think that often, or pay attention constantly because that's the type of entertain that this demographic of 30 to 50 years old players enjoy. If it was a constantly changing strategy each time you encountered a mob, for example AI of the mob was much smarter, majority of players would leave this game so quickly.

    At the same time, increasing mob power by increasing physical damage or spell damage is not skill by the developer either, its a turn the knob easy way to put out content without doing much work. Just as copy/pasting spell data without any creativity is too.
    Zhaunil_AB likes this.
  4. gotwar Augur

    You can say this, and argue that there is no "skill" or whatever you want to call it in EQ, but regardless a massive gap exists anyway.

    All you have to do it look at parses from a few guilds in the top 10-20 to see what a massive difference there is. That's not even going out "into the wild" to look at what the average player is doing. Going by a measurable metric (DPS), it can often be half or even less of what a "top-tier" player is capable of.

    Even going outside of ability interaction, you can find players making "skill/knowledge" mistakes in other ways, too. Watching and participating in other guilds' raids, you can find all kinds of strategy mistakes being made that hinder raid progression. Whether it's mob positioning, raid positioning, burn timing, composition, whatever.

    It's easy to take for granted a lot of the things that make great players great. It's a combination of situational awareness, meta-game knowledge, ability interactions, and general affinity for MMORPGs.

    I play other games, like MOBAs, too, so I understand where you're coming from with the "no skill in EQ" argument. For the purposes of simplicity, calling it a "skill gap" in EQ is still accurate, and it's a massive gap. It's also a pretty serious problem that doesn't have a clear solution.

    "Gitgud" and "nerf content" are equally crappy answers, since both alienate sections of the player base. Both Joe Schmoe and Billy Badass want to play and enjoy new expansions when they come out. Finding a way to facilitate both should be a priority in every expansion release.
  5. Tappin Augur

    Suggesting that the people who are complaining about the expansion being "hard" has large deficit is skill to the players who are not, is absolute nonsense.

    The only tangible deficit here lies in AA and Gear pools. Someone who doesn't have the basic AAs and Gear from the last 3 expansion is going to struggle with this expansion.

    This expansion is just too small to serve a wide range of the player base. There just isn't anything in it for those a bit behind the curve.

    There isn't any reason to make the content any easier. Instead they should focus on adding content to any new expansion (assuming this is not the last) that will serve people behind the curve.
    Corwyhn Lionheart and So Happy like this.
  6. Defjam Journeyman

    Should someone without basic gear/AAs from the past three expansions expect to immediately jump into current day content? There's been a level increase and giant leaps in gear in that amount of time.

    As an EoK group geared tank, I've been loving this expansion, outside the extremely weird progression flow. The TBL group gear has been an amazing boost and there's been some challenging content to try out. My only complaint is that there isn't actually PoFire content. :(
    Belexes, Pirlo and Tucoh like this.
  7. Tucoh Augur

    Suggesting that DBG should provide content in TBL for someone who just finished TDS (while there is TBM, EoK and RoS for them) is like complaining that there are only TWO starbucks in one shopping area, and there really needs to be a third instead of whatever else they're building.
  8. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Augur

    Skill - the ability to do something well; expertise.

    I could care less about what you do or don't do in other games. Skill is skill. If you are at the top of EQ because you are skilled, great. EQ is easy for you. Got it.

    Your post of sideways insults indicates to me you have zero skill conveying ideas in a social atmosphere. You could learn a thing or two from these skill-less EQ players.
  9. denna New Member

    Hmm this is classic. This post is mostly degenerating to the classic discussion: highly geared player vs casuals - e.g. uber vs casual.

    From post above/gotwar: I play other games, like MOBAs, too, so I understand where you're coming from with the "no skill in EQ" argument. For the purposes of simplicity, calling it a "skill gap" in EQ is still accurate, and it's a massive gap. It's also a pretty serious problem that doesn't have a clear solution.
    Clearly gotwar is one smart cookie!

    For the groups that I play in give me and the others better gear, and volia! This expansion will be quite doable! Per many of you, all of a sudden I will become much smarter! Yea!

    But no, I dont want you to give me better gear, yes I want to earn it, just at a slower pace than you all have done.

    That is I am saying this expansion, since the missions and named are quite hard atm for casual players makes other, often highly geared players feel much better since they can progress! That is a success of this expansion! Yea! Clearly the implication is that better gear = better/smarter person, just read many of the posts in this thread :)

    Anyway, I thought what the OP was talking about was the design of this expansion. If you can't do the trials eventually this expansion will be very discouraging to you. You won't be able to progress, albeit at your slow casual pace if you cant do the trials and/or kill named in TBL.

    The flip side is that to attempt to progress you will need to group with strong players. We will see if that works well in this expansion. If that is the design goal, then DB achieved it, and the game will be either better or worse for that.

    Cheers all and have a happy new year!
    Corwyhn Lionheart and So Happy like this.
  10. Tappin Augur

    The expansion wasn’t advertised as 110 with 25k AA and mostly RoS TS as minimum requirement. If they paid for the expansion and at least 110, they have should have some consumable content to progress their characters.
  11. Whulfgar Augur

    Hi new guy welcome to Everquest.

    I would suggest you being new an all, go out meet new people. Learn the class you choose to play as a main. Join a raid guild or make friends with some that do raid. Or failing all that.. join a really active none raid guild as yes this expansion is hard, but unplayable ? No clearly you are wrong there.

    Happy hunting new player Merlein !
  12. Yinla Augur

    This is the most frustrating Expansion I have ever seen from EQ. All the points Merlein made are valid.

    Something they forgot. Esianti a T1 zone being locked behind 2 T2 zones, who is doing to want to exp in a T1 zone when they have T2 zones available to them? Give the players access from the start and let them play in the easiest zone of the expansion from the off.

    Currently there is next to nothing you can do if you do not have a real tank and a healer, this is the one of the main issue with the whole of this expansion. I have been logging in most days and there has been a lack of healers and tanks and at least 6 groups of DPS all looking for said tanks/healers to do somethiing!

    The another thing is the number of locked zones, I'm tired of seeing sorry I can't come help you in XXX zone as I'm not flagged for it.

    Progression is overcomplicated, normal expansions, you can complete quests in each zone and move on. Partisan quests are a nightmare this time round, you need to do the 1st one, then move to the next zone do a quest there then move back and do a quest in the previous zone, rince and repeat for each zone. Thankfully the 3rd partisan in each zone seems to be nothing to do with progression and can be done as soon as you have access to the zone, without doing anything else, at least 2 of which involve no killing at all!

    AE from NPCs should not effect half the zone, a group killing a named should not interfere with other groups! Mearatas seems to be one of the worse, if players are killing the named in the centre of the zone, the AE hits players at the quest NPC who gives merc task and half way to the outer walls!

    While I myself have completed all quests and missions, I can understand others frustrations, this expansion is almost impossible if you don't have a real healer and tank (pets work for somethings) and some form or CC.
    Graves, Spellfire and Quatreh like this.
  13. yepmetoo Augur

    ...

    Reread what you just wrote.

    Read it again.

    And a third time.

    Group gear this expansion is equivalent to EoK raid gear, fairly close to RoS raid gear in many stats.

    You are complaining that you need a...group...to do...group content?

    This is not a solo game. It has never been a solo game. Mercs are not a substitute for a player. They are a stopgap so you can do "something", not a key to doing "everything".

    If you can't do this content, it means you need to go back and finish the content you never did in the first place. You don't pay for an "I Win" button when buying an expansion. You don't deserve anything other than access just for buying it.

    Bad or poor design decisions are a matter of opinion. Always some things that could be done better. But the whining this expansion is pathetic, and mostly from people that HAVE NOT ACTUALLY PUT IN THE EFFORT TO EVEN TRY.

    People didn't even wait 2 days to start whining and begging for things to be made easier. The expansion came out 18 DAYS ago, and people are whining that they don't have a ton of mhubis, aren't flagged for 1-2 zones yet, aren't gearing up and blowing up named easy with their box characters. Just stop, its really sad at this point.
    Belexes likes this.
  14. Ecchicon Elder

    Finished Paragon yesterday and I have only a handful of partisan/merc quests left to finish.

    I definitely disagree that the various smoke trials are harder then the rest of the expansion. Some of the last few hero quests require precise planning, execution, and timing. Doable in group gear, but not much room for mistakes. These missions will be virtually impossible for players that think you can brute force your way through them.

    I wouldn’t argue they are overturned without knowing the intention of the developers. There are some very powerful rewards locked behind progression achievements in this expansion that should probably not be easy to access for “casual” players (a term I don’t quite understand in this debate on Everquest’s content). If they are intended to be completed by partially RoS group-geared missing augs, progression achievements, clickies, essential up-to-date AAs, and viable class knowledge, then they are overturned. If they are intended to be completed by what I personally consider an average Everquest player with a reasonable expectation of difficulty and the ability to comprehend what is required and synthesizing a winning strategy, then the content isn’t far from where it should be. From my experience the content is, if anything, a bit eccentric (which I think is intentional based on the theme) and somewhat unforgiving. Personally, I felt a sense of achievement after completing the content that I only get from Everquest. My group(s) and I came together to accomplish tasks that took time to figure out and complete. I look forward to accomplishing further achievements in the expansion as well.

    And just to add, I will also agree that the mobs AEing through walls and hitting other players is frustrating and I could imagine it really ruining the experience of some less-initiated players.

    Good hunting, all.
  15. Yinla Augur

    Try re reading what I wrote I have completed TBL missions and quests!

    I'm not complaining that you need a group, I am commenting that you need a group of real players, mercs of any discription do not cut it doing ANY content this expansion until you get to Esianti which is locked behind T2 progression!

    Maybe you should be the one to try things without the perfect group set up!
    NeverPayForLag likes this.
  16. Whulfgar Augur

    I completely .. disagree ..

    Literally 6 quests .. key's you for well over HALF .. the content of this expansion.

    If thats too hard for you .. you can literally join a FS .. an bypass ALL progression ..

    I've posted how I box some of the Trial's.. with alt's who are ALL under 170k hp's .. fully raid buffed.

    PS: What class and server are you playing on ?
    code-zero likes this.
  17. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    Oh really, is he now?

    "the content is doable".. yes, certainly. but by whom, in what group-makeups?
    Point here is that many (me included) feel that a pickup group of 6live characters should be able to complete just about any T1 content at expansion release. But what do we see? Raiders breeze through,with gear and guild resources (always, not TBL-specific - and yes, raid gear DOES translate into survivablilty and DPS even when some people try to deny that year after year) while the normal grouper has a more than rocky start until he can, as was suggested on the foprums for such cases, get some rot loot...
    Is that, getting other's spoils in the form of rot loot, your idea of a good start into the expansion? It certainly is not mine.

    As to the event mechanics:
    If you read above, i am specifically allowing for that - the grouping that has preceeded and perhaps even prompted this very thread was my very first venture into this expansion and the OP was nice enough to help me through some.

    hmm...
    By all means, correct me if i am wrong, but in MY book "harder than it should be" is synonym to "overtuned" as the OP used it.
    So i think it is fair to say that the OP was NOT, as you claim above, "simply wrong" - right?

    I agree, there are many people tooting a bit too loud into their horns, on either side.
    Yet, people are posting from their experiences and with their frustration that has built up prior to posting.
    In the case of the OP, i think that when you know (and it's fact) that he's been a regular raider for years but he is showing as a "new member" on the forums, it is safe to deduct that he does not fall into the category of people you mention here.


    (and just for the record: Yes, we have meanwhile beaten the trial of 3 - with me tanking and healing, with the OP and the WIZ and the MAG ALT. BUT also without the two pickup people we originally had, so raiders among themselves. Again, that is not my expectation of an MMO and even less so for T1 stuff, mission or not.)
    Do you really want to tell me that my expectation that we should be able to beat this with a group of 6chars played by 5players, with tanking+healing and DPS covered "on paper"... is wrong?
    If so, and if that were to become the official stance, then it would be high time to have an earnest talk with my friends about whether this game is actually for us...

    But i do not think so - instead i am quite with the OP, that they need to rethink their baselining during the design/build phase.
  18. Yinla Augur

    We all have our own opinions and we all see things from a different perspective. But I guess you missed the part where I said I'd finished all quests and missions.

    I play a wizzy on AB, reists are stupidly high this expansion from what I have experienced, but now she has finished she is benched apart from raids until they fix the achievements! Not an enjoyable expansion from a caster perspective. For me its not that things are difficult its that there is very, very, very little that can be accomplished without the perfect group and EQ these days is very lacking in tanks and healers.

    Anyway enough about me lets look at those 6 quests shall we.

    Solidier of Air - Stratos - Walk in the park as long as no one is killing a named nearby. :rolleyes: (now you start to see where my frustrations come from)

    Fight Fire - Stratos - Needs a big strong tank or someone who can CC or single pull. Definalty need to pull something out of the bag for the final 4 non splitable mobs, some creativity comes in handy with splitting. Don't EVAC unless you have killed the mob at the landing spot! Possibly a bit OTT for the first misson, but I've had various groups doing this over the course of the last few weeks, all have passed it adventually, most fun was, mage, beast and 2 druids....As I said before there is a lack of tanks, tank mercs haven't cut it for years and this time round raid geared rangers/monks don't cut it either! Pets on the other hand.....

    Smoke Trials - Plane of Smoke - To be honest not really had any trouble with these. Ashes of Rusted Cliff's Glory, I think was the hardest of the bunch, but the group we had at the time included a warrior and and SK (their like busses none at all and then 2 at once) and a bloody good cleric. :) Reset mechanic on Trial of 3 did my head in when during the first couple of days but going through it again with the alt, took one look at the clues and the mobs and knew imediatly which to start and end with, took far less thinking time. Dot is also evil on that one. Cyclone was simple once we realised you didn't have to tank the mob up top. :) Wending Ways, as long as everyone sticks together its not so bad, need to go at the pace of your slowest member (this is where boxers have an easier time!). Speaker's Amphitheatre - done this one a couple of times, the roaming aura is unavoidable if your on a platform and it decides to roam through it, jumping off leashes the mob and you have to start again, guess that achievement is going to be down to luck! A little frustrating that you don't all get a port up until the final mobs but there are ways to get around not haivng a porting device thing. I was fortunate when I did these to have the perfect group. :)

    Prisoners Dilemma - Empry - Killing the 3 guards can be tough and thats just to get the quest, need some form of CC or a beefy tank. A tracker makes it easier to find the roaming mobs, but once you know where they come from and head to, its not so hard to find them. Trash in Empyr has some evil dots which could do with some reduction. Especially when the tank has a bad round and gets the dot at the same time! This one is all about having CC to get the quests :rolleyes:

    Palace of Embers - Empyr - This was the first quest I threw my toys out the pram at. Need someone to split the mobs at the towers or CC, named thankfully doesn't agro when he spawns and you do have time to prepare. Need to be prepared for the add that pops duirng the fight (he was a bit of a surprise), the Hand hits very hard, can't remember if this one had a dot or AE or not I know the last one does and it is very nasty. This one I feel could do with being tuned down. Dying just before an update and missing it is huge setback and I've been hearing a lot of people missing updates due to being dead. In the case of the Aaliahia if you miss the kill you either need to find another group who can spawn it or restart the quest. This quest would benefit everyone if it was a group quest, or if you miss the kill it could be respawned again. It could also do with a reduction on how many mobs you have to kill to get the Hand and ambassador to spawn, saying that the hand has been up the last couple of times I've been running round Empyr, I just hope that wasn't due to groups wiping on him. Dislike this quest with a passion! CC isn't quite so important but the group benefists from having an extra healer especially with that dot! With healers being so few and far between, I would say this could do with a tune down.

    Brass Palace - Stratos - Don't remember a lot about this one other than resists! A lot of mobs and some good CC, oh yeah and avoiding auras!

    Key to The Kingdom - Stratos - being as it is the 2nd partisan in Stratos it is as you would expect simple! It is just damn annoying you need to do all of the above to request it! Be careful who you ask to help, if they haven't done any progression they are KOS here and you get adds.....

    Only 6 quests, but a couple of those are nasty, and you need at least a beefy tank, healer and mezer, 2nd healer is also an advantage, and everyone with rez tokens!

    Spent yesterday going through this again on my alt beastlord and with lesser gear than the wizzy and half the AA, she is having a far easier time. But it was tuned down on 18th December, so maybe its that which I'm seeing not a difference in class. Still been finding a lot of the mobs resisting slow, which is frustrating especially when it is tashed (love tash orb).

    Most hated quest for this expansion - Enter Mearatas - really wish the group got the kills in the same order! Though now we know the heads are prelootable, in future it will be do the 2 kills, get everyone to the hand in the note stage and then all do that, as that is a major pain in the , worsed I have seen in a long time! Lots of bang head on desk moments as you tell group members to stop following the write up on EQResource and look at the damn quest they have!

    On the whole I've enjoyed the expansion, loving the new zones and modles, but it is extremely frustrating! Though players are the cause of some of that frustration. LOL

    As I said some of it is almost impossible without the perfect group, other bits you can have some fun with. Pet groups seem to be extremely effective! As a caster with the number of resisted spells I feel worthless in this expansion and that DPS spot is better off going to a melee DPS as the group will progess a lot faster. Something I proved yesterday while playing a lower geared and AA beastlord. :) Good job I love my kitty.
  19. kizant Augur

    My immersion would be completely ruined if someone fought a named next to me and I was somehow immune to AE effect simply because I wasn't on agro.
    Belexes and Sancus like this.
  20. Vdidar Augur

    My short take a couple weeks into it. I am a filthy casual. The expansion is really hard. I also don’t care to much about lore and the progression makes no sense without following along I guess. It’s not linear. I’ve killed 2 named. One I had to ask another group for help with because the mez screwed me hard. It’s not an overly fun expansion. I don’t foresee myself wanting to play long term in any zone I’ve been in so far. I only have one zone left to get into by the way. My money is already spent so I’ll live with that but in my own opinion this expansion is a gigantic bust. I’m happy for the people who like it but for me it’s just another waste of money. At least in RoS one could see the zones other than VP. I’m sure more raiders will be helping filthy casuals like me as we move on and more people will come here talking about how easy it is when in reality it isn’t. Dbg also seems to be in a massive money grab right now so it’s entirely possible they don’t care what anyone thinks of the expansion because it’s the last one. Who knows.
    Corwyhn Lionheart and Metanis like this.

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