Tanking Heroics and Raid Boss Strikethrough

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Gorg00, Jul 15, 2020.

  1. Szilent Augur

    change out only the type5
  2. p2aa Augur

    I haven't dismissed your Griklor parse. I was raising the question if it was due to HDex only.

    Here is a Griklor parse I did burn only.
    /GU Combined: Griklor the Restless in 353s, 2 275,5m @6446269 | #22 Warrior 94064k@(268,8k in 350s).

    Here is my spell log, I just kept the pure DPS spells

    Warrior
    --- Battle Leap X - 1
    --- Brutal Onslaught - 1
    --- Heroic Blade V - 1
    --- Lightning Breath - 2
    --- Mighty Strike - 1
    --- Necromantic Curse - 3
    --- Rage of Rallos Zek I - 1
    --- Rampage V - 3
    --- Vehement Rage VI - 2
    --- Weapon Affinity - 1


    Note that I used the Offensive Disc a few times, and it's not showing in gameparse, and one Strikethrough too while waiting for Offensive Disc to be back up.

    No ADPS in group if we except the classic MGB stuff (so similar condition than you),
    I'm using a TS 2 H Blunt, I wasted a full Mighty Strike disc duration as I clicked it by mistake when Griklor left back on his mount, and there was no adds up at this time. So maybe I would have ended at 280-290 k DPS.

    As a HSta warrior, it puts me in line with the DPS of the first warrior in your parse after you, by curiosity what is the Heroic choice of this warrior ?
    Anyhow, I find back the around 100 k DPS difference you underlined, and this is probably due to you going full HDex yeah.

    That being said, I'm not willing to give up the advantages I found by going HSta, to make the overall fights shorter of 5-25 sec (going Hdex) or that a + 0,69 % miss chance is going to have an impact (going HAgi).
    I suspect also that at this stage each tank is firmly believing in the Heroic choice he made, and that very few would change, after reading this thread.

    If DPG would fix raid mob stats so that we can really avoid hits more going HAgi or HDex, then it would be interesting to compare the parry / riposte rates versus dodge / miss rates, to see which one would won.
    From a theory point of view, I think HAgi should be the best choice for tanks classes, HDex is yet the best choice for all the melee DPS classes, so would put more diversity.
    So maybe work on the miss rate then, make it so that there is a clear advantage on miss % to go HAgi. In counterpart that you could miss more, the melee hits could be increased again so that it's less interesting to take hits than missing them.
  3. p2aa Augur

    Indeed, I didn't want HP change to impact the testing, I just swapped out type 5 augs so that only HSta numbers are changing.

    Warriors have 32,1 % from ND
    Also yeah we probably win a bit more HP per Sta increase, I think it was yet the case with the normal Sta stat, so I would assume it is too with HSta, and it seems to be true as you come with an average of 16,5 and me an average of 16,75.
  4. Zaknaffein Augur

    I gear for Hdex and asked to be put in a dps group with some ADPS for tonight's raid. I did horrible, died a couple times on tofs 2 and didn't even top the parses, the necromancers kept beating me.

    I have concluded therefore that warrior's should indeed just focus on their main role and do nothing but agro the things and tank with the shield out. We aren't a DPS class obviously.

    Check out last nights action here to see exactly how bad Heroic Dex and warrior dps is here:

  5. Triconix Augur

    I mean...I'm at like 98% crit rate on Trico as HAgil and can pull similar numbers if/when I get thrown into a dps group (which is rarely ever). By next expansion HDex will be all but useless for a raid tank during raids. You can get enough HDex stacking something else to maintain the same dps then get the added bonus of better mitigation.

    95% of warrior DPS is passive meaning it's mainly auto attack after burn buttons are hit with ADPS running. All you have to do is make sure you have the correct burn cycle. Once you do that we essentially have nothing to else to worry about like elaborate, multi-ability keybinds like most other dps classes.

    P.S. maybe you should swap seeing how often you die compared to me while MTing ;)

    What is this parse of? Tanking? Because my baseline SB combo is pretty much on par with your dps minus that tAoW parse and better than the non-Hdex war. I really hope these aren't 2H parses because they are pathetic at best and laughable at worst. 170-200k dps while dpsing as a war with absolutely no ADPS is incredibly low.
  6. Zaknaffein Augur

    Don't be jelly!

    Also I'd look at average hit and avoidance % and not death counts. I have and you're usually just a around 2-400 less on the average hit and avoidance is about the same, it fluctuates but is generally not too far apart, granted on paper and in reality are much different so /shrug. I've looked at parses where I have taken around 1-2k less damage than you on avg, and my avoidance was much higher ( I can only assume I glyphed and you didn't).

    Dieing is solely on the support you get really, among all the other 100 things that can go wrong but I have died on AoW with glyph on and only 2 adds up, but also lived with just anguish BP on and 5 adds up.

    A lot of people give me for dieing, but it's usually due to me trying to DPS with the 2hander on and offensive running, and mind you I have bold attacks off, only spam shield topple and ask pallies for Mars, yet will still pull agro. If I am intentionally tanking I go DW at the start with flash/fort on to build agro then swap to SB and go through my tanking weaves and hope the mob gets debuffed, heals are incoming and adds get pulled off me.

    I mostly just make troll posts because in general only the morons post on these forums anymore. But I have gone with heroic Dex for a while now, and before that was heroic Stam, and before that was Agi. The times change, and one has to keep up with what is the best gear path for the moment, and right now that's Dex. In general though if you stack any of those really you'll be fine, as long as you use your abilities to the fullest effect and have a good support system around you, you'll be fine. Have fun with it and ask the raid lead to stick you in a dps group for a night while in farm mode, have some fun and try to top the pars! (Necros don't count atm!)
  7. Szilent Augur

    That parse is of you being a salty child who's "pretty much" not keeping up, I guess, and so is fabricating possibilities that might excuse his lack of performance.
  8. Szilent Augur

    a private message brought to my attention an odd forum bug. the post quoted is attributed to the wrong author! can't edit, sosorry
  9. The real Sandaormo Augur

    Can you put me in a perfect group designed to maximize dps please?
    No, I am in my normal tank group?
    But but I wanna link stuff on the forum!! wtf
  10. Zaknaffein Augur

    Do it, have some fun and post up the parses and it video. What else ya gonna do for the next 6 months of easy TOV?

    People who think warriors only belong in a "tank" group for every single raid are either ignorant of what warriors are capable of these day, stuck in the mindset that warriors cant dps and therefore shouldn't be in a dps group, or refuse to change and are stuck in 2002 EQ.

    I'll top the pars if I'm put in an asps group, so why not put me in there when theres enough knights to cover tanking? Swap around with the tanks so you tank everything one night while others get to play in dps groups, and vice versa. Most raids build groups around classes capabilities and what we consider classes that can pars well to dps get put with the classes that enhance thier dps, so when I top the pars it makes sense to stick warrior with that asps when they beat out other "dps" classes on a pars.

    Too many though are of the mindset that tanks arent suppose to or cant dps so wont do it, which is a shame really.

    Idk what guild you're In but next raid day give it a god, get into an asps group and post what you can do. Ask questions if you want time tips on how to increase your dps too if ya want.

    One of these I plan to update my warrior guide post.
  11. Spankage Lorekeeper

    Agree completely and wholeheartedly with everything Zak has posted, the stigma exists but it shouldn't.

    Dpsing and comparing parses, changing things up, sometimes getting that fat ADPS group...it all makes raids far more entertaining for me than simply rotating through the same defensives and sometimes flat-out afking while tanking.

    Try it out, you'd be surprised.
  12. Natal Augur

    What about melee shielding?
  13. FranktheBank Augur

    So, what I am gathering is it really doesn't matter because you guys are currently steamrolling ToV. Would any of of that change if (hypothetically) the next expac was a brutal tanking one (maybe thinking back to UF?)

    The reason I ask is that I (and Gorg) are on the Selo server where we are a bit more gear starved usually, because of the rapid expac rate.

    Thanks.
  14. The real Sandaormo Augur

    Correct, this would really only apply to those that have max or near max gear ( it would also mean you spent the time to get a couple different sets of Heroic augs). This would also need Clerics / Healers that are "willing" to spam more heals in if you swapped in a 2 hander ( depending on event can get pretty spiky ).

    If you're looking to tank for your guild and survive a new encounter, you would want your very best tankiest set up. Any tank that wants to stick to his 2 hander and is getting crushed needs to get his head back in the game. Until those events are on heavy farm, after that go nuts if you want.
  15. Bigstomp Augur

    I'd cry with a merc healer as a warrior.

    Diminishing returns on shielding, avoidance, whatever one dex gives are a thing. It takes more heroics to make the next point.

    I personally gear for hAGI, but I mix my augs. More heroics are better. I get a dropped dex aug which has more relevant heroics overall (dex/sta/agi). I'll make sure I find room for that.

    If I go to the vendor I buy hAGI.

    Once you are big enough to ride the ride, it's about are you pushing your buttons or not pushing your buttons.
    minimind likes this.
  16. Szilent Augur

    no they aren't. no it doesn't.
    yepmetoo likes this.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    If the melee side of heroics are completely washed out and negated, then knights could focus on their spell casting side. Interestingly enough the hWis/hInt Type5 augs have secondarily hSta, with hDex/hAgi the next tier. One might say perfect for knights. Likewise, Warriors could focus on endurance with hSta primarily.

    Heroics are at best 10% of a character's power and always have been marginal. This conversation has been going on for 7+ years and is still inconclusive because heroics are more noise then substance.
    Allayna and shiftie like this.
  18. josh Augur


    You are neglecting to apply CA and physical enhancement to your calculation. We get about 0.8 points of evasion per point of heroic agility. Much easier to test this in game by removing a type 5 and seeing how it affects it. I also have an excel formula with dzarns post entered in with the CA and physical enhancement added in. 600 HAgi adds 484 avoidance AC.

    I've talked about this topic a lot. the easiest way to do parses involving evasion and accuracy is with PVP. You can now see both your evasion and your accuracy. the game rolls a number between 0 and your evasion. then it rolls a number between 0 and your attackers accuracy. if you roll higher, then it's a miss.

    You can plug this into excel and run trials, or you can just use the formula I've talked about before. If your evasion is lower than your attackers accuracy, it's simply 50 * evasion/accuracy = chance to miss

    so for instance, if i had 1000 evasion and you had 4000 accuracy, you would do 50 * 1000/4000 = 12.5% chance to MISS

    However, if your evasion is above my accuracy, then you have to flip it and you are now calculating chance to hit. so 50 * accuracy/evasion = chance to hit

    If i have 4000 evasion and yo have 1000 accuracy, 50 * 1000/4000 = 12.5% chance to HIT

    in this scenario, a 10% increase to evasion will not result in a 10% increase to miss chance as we are calculating hit chance now. A 10% increase to accuracy will be a 10% increase to hit chance though.

    50 * 1100/4000 = 13.75

    You can test all of this with PVP. gamparse still doesn't have misses first (my version doesn't anyway) so make sure you are attacking from behind to avoid messing it up with other defenses. also, I don't know if there is a better trick for this but gamparse doesn't seem to parse pvp, but you can just go into the log file and use find and replace to change the name of the attacker to the name of an NPC or something and it works fine. You also have to set it to show fights with 1 damage in advanced settings, and do some damage with the defender for the fight to show up.

    also keep in mind that different weapons will have different accuracy. I would recommend using one weapon and don't have any auto skills running. parses will need to be at least an hour, the longer you do the closer you'll get to the calculation.
  19. MaddielynBlackStar Lorekeeper

    Heroic stats are just for magelo padding :p and personal preference. I like to see them add some sort of bonus to tanking from LUCK stats personally, like an extra lucky avoid etc. That would be nice.
  20. josh Augur

    The dps benefits from HDex are definitely not useless for knights, but possibly useless for warriors depending on how good their guild is at keeping things like ancestral aid going. If they are consistently at 100% crit chance, then more HDex isn't going to help much.

    Knights don't have the innate crit boost that warriors do, so we still have a long way to go before HDex no longer benefits us. and it's benefit is very significant and one of the reasons why HSta is not better than HAgi. this is why if you aren't dying on raids, you should be doing HDex.

    The 800ish boost to dexterity you get from going from HSta to HDex results in a 10% increase to crit chance with pureforge running. Keep in mind, more crits means more cripples.

    Sk's would see a benefit in melee taps from the extra damage they'd be doing, so even defensively, HDex has benefits.

    Yes you are sacrificing avoidance or health, but the simple fact is, those things are really really small, and the benefit of HDex is not small.
    Drogba and Riou like this.

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