Tanking Heroics and Raid Boss Strikethrough

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Gorg00, Jul 15, 2020.

  1. Spankage Lorekeeper

    As your warrior is a group warrior that you're bringing up, dex is more important in that content in the form of additional bonuses to parry and riposte. This is in opposition to hagi's avoidance bonus and sta's raw hp.

    I've played almost solely with merc healers for most expansions after they were introduced, clever and knowledgeable use of defensive abilities, aa, and items will far outweigh any one bonus. Playing this way has had no bearing on my choice in heroic

    From what I've seen, balancing with lower heroic items isn't feasible as you won't be able to reach certain thresholds, hence going all-in on one stat.
    minimind likes this.
  2. Bigstomp Augur


    In TBM pretty much everything had 100% strike through.
  3. Bigstomp Augur

    My advice would be big augs (generally dropped augs) of +hsta, +hdex + hagi look at total numbers of all 3. Use the dropped augs. More heroics in general help.

    Then for the bought augs, for the bought augs I'd lean towards dex if I was a group geared war.
    I currently lean towards agi on my raid war.

    I would cry. Nothings going to save you with a bad healer. Maybe dex will let you kill it just before you expire.
  4. p2aa Augur

    Do you have proofs that the formula is as easy as this ? If this was so linear, then I would have seen impact on my miss % on tanking parses, and I didn't see. You can blame the length of the parse on raid boss which is too short, but these are the durations we are seeing, so if you need a 2 hour fight to see a clear + 0,1 % advantage, then it's pointless.
    Even so, there is a + 600 HAgi difference between a HAgi and a HSta tank similarly geared.
    Using the AC formula, this gives an impact of + 184 avoidance AC, so + 4,6 % on a base of 4000 avoidance AC.
    So on a raid boss that hits for 15 % of the time, that gives a + 0,69 % advantage, and this is an estimation, not a real number, so it's within a margin of error.


    When you recruit a tank class in your raid, it's for his tanking purpose, not his DPS purpose. While HSta and HAgi have still some mitigation purpose, even if tiny, HDex has none.
    I value first my ability to mitigate, over my ability to DPS. Also, I explained the advantages I saw with going HSta, and for me this is a clear advantage over others Heroic choices.
    For me, on raid, I value HSta > HAgi > HDex.
    The fact that type 5 HSta augs have also HAgi as a secondary stat is working well too on my Heroic stat ranking.

    For group tank, HDex > HSta > HAgi.
  5. Spankage Lorekeeper

    And this is sound logic, if we weren't knee-deep in the farm cycle or raids were designed to be more taxing on tanks. With the introduction of the new dragon glyph, we're left with an unlimited cycle of mitigating abilities that far far outweigh heroic defensives. Assuming you're currently tanking anyhow, my guild may just run with "too many" tanks - hence my preference of more dps.

    Of those tanks, there's a spread of agi sta and dex and neither they nor healers could spot a difference on any raid. We one tank everything, no one dies, no one gets spiked constantly. There's the real world observation and why I state that it's purely preference what you want to run with. I prefer dps because it's tangible and I like making things dead quicker.

    I also don't play nearly enough to carry around multiple sets of type 5 augs, which hasn't been discussed here yet but a viable way to test things yourself or to switch between raid and group content.
  6. Szilent Augur

    My experience is that when a tank character is recruited, it's to provide insurance against the days when other tanks don't log in so a 4-tank event doesn't have 3 tanks participating so an under geared alt has to be called up.

    The reality is that on any given day, there's either more than needed logged in to have fun - or double, triple, or even 15 times more than needed logged in. If there is, typically, three full groups out of a raid's nine total groups just standing around who think their actual role is just standing around hoping for a moment to get hit in the face, the raid is a third weaker than it should be before fighting even begins.

    Tanks who don't respect their own dps potential are a huge liability to raids.
    Allayna, Zaknaffein and Syylke_EMarr like this.
  7. p2aa Augur

    The question could be raised too for DPS. Can you notice a DPS difference between a HDex tank and another Heroic one, providing they get same ADPS support ?

    What does it have to do with the Heroic Choice ? Are you saying that tanks that didn't went HDex are not on a DPS mode when they aren't tanking ?
  8. Szilent Augur

    just the easy pulls from this week, my own groups with crazyawesome Pal+Cle ADPS

    /GU Combined (16) as: Tserrina Syl`Tor in 881s, 321.5m @361593sdps | #19 Szilent 246.5m@277.2k sdps | #34 Not.hDex.Warrior 154.2m@173.4k sdps

    /GU Combined (40) as: Icebound Avatar of War in 922s, 512.5m @536079sdps | #21 Szilent 284.5m@297.6k sdps | #31 Not.hDex.Warrior 195.0m@203.9k sdps

    /GU Combined (79) as: Narandi the Restless in 1322s, 416.0m @310653sdps | #21 Szilent + pets 283.2m@211.5k sdps | #31 different.non.hDex.warrior + pets 215.1m@160.6k sdps
  9. Zaknaffein Augur

    SR needs to be putting the warriors in actual DPS groups. Get out of here with that tank group settup, give those spots to the scrubby knights.
  10. Zaknaffein Augur

    Wait, I mean go Agi cause warriors are tanks and not DPS..

    Know your role and only ever equip sword and board and just hit taunt and tank the stuff. Any warrior who thinks they are DPS should stop playing a warrior and swap to an actual DPS class if they want to DPS.
  11. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    I still say it doesn't matter. We're all ridiculously overgeared for everything anyway, and if you're not under disc or your healers aren't on the ball you're gonna likely die versus things hitting for 20% of your hp max hit, so its not gear.

    I do hdex but go for the highest dex/agi total primarily. Even use a type 5 agi aug *shrug*.

    No tribute or short term raid buffs/auras or whatever, and as a paladin I'm at 430k+ hp, 10k+/4.1k+ ac. That is with 2600 dex, 2000 agi, 1700 sta. I won't worry about sta until I'm near 2000. Then it will be worth it for me to hit 2000. I bet you if you dropped all of those by 500 each it wouldn't make a major difference on raids.

    And as someone mentioned, the benefit of hsta is not anywhere near 20k. Its like somewhere between 10-11 hp per hsta (for a knight, maybe more for warriors but not much more). So if someone has 2500 hsta, they have maybe 9k hp at most more. That isn't enough for me to care about. I don't care about growth from druid/shaman or paladin stance for that matter.
  12. p2aa Augur

    Is that your own parsing, or the parsing of someone else ? And the other warriors listed were on a 100 % DPS role too ? AoW there is a lot of adds to tank, Narandi the raid can also receive lot of trash mobs to intercept.
    These events are not so good to parse, because people can be further apart of each other. You can appear much higher on your own parse than other people parse. I know comparing to some other melee class people he was off of around 75 k DPS compared to my DPS parse.
    The best candidate in ToV would be Griklor. Everyone is sticking and killing around at the same spot, be it Named or Adds. And all tanks don't have anything else to do than DPSing, bar 2 (Griklor MT and Adds tank). Also would the difference of DPS be due to Heroic Choice, and not how this warrior used his DPS disc ?

    I did recently some extensive HSta tests with different HSta numbers to check the number of HP per HSta point. For a warrior.

    Here are the results

    Hsta number HP number
    1 23,00
    1 10,00
    2 16,50
    3 19,00
    4 16,75
    5 18,20
    6 16,67
    8 16,75
    10 16,80
    14 16,79
    15 16,27
    16 16,75
    18 16,78
    19 17,11
    20 16,75
    24 16,75
    34 16,76
    40 16,75
    42 16,76
    45 16,91
    55 16,89
    70 16,76

    This is not the exact same number, but the most common number is 16,75.

    And it's fun to notice that this seems to work more with even numbers.
    The uneven numbers, especially those between 1 and 10, are weird, especially when I tested 1 HSta two times and obtained 10 and 23, the average of these two numbers is 16,5 though.
    At higher ranks, this seems to stabilize better, but the uneven numbers remain between 16,75 and 17.

    So 800 HSta difference for a warrior is 13 400 HP.
    Also, as a warrior, I cannot refill on my own my HP pool , contrary to a paladin who can be much more reactive on a bad round, so relying on getting the most HP allows me to save a bit of time until the heal lands. Is that 15 k HP a life saver all times ? I would not say it, but maybe it could at times put me to purple club one sec instead of dieing, and a heal saves me right after.
  13. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    Something I've recently noticed is that tanks that stack hAGI or hDEX (with a slight edge on the average to hDEX) tend to have a better balance of all 3 (hAGI, hDEX, hSTA) than tanks that stack hSTA.

    It's also worth noting that they all 3 seem to have different attainable maximums, with hAGI having the lowest and hSTA having the highest for Warriors and Paladins. SKs can reach higher hDEX values than the other 2 tanks for some reason, so their order of maximums is hAGI<hSTA<hDEX.

    Of course, this is all going by Magelo numbers, so keep your grains of salt handy :p
  14. Filter Augur

    I just went and swapped my slot 5 hDex augs to hSta, still need 5, and my hps gain was approx 16K. Not that I have anything to contribute here since I do not raid any longer. When I came back I was all about hAgi because thats what we did (7 years ago or so) and had parses to prove it was worthy, I started using my war again 20 months ago. The switch to hDex served me well as a grouper. As I contemplated guest raiding with a friends guild, I started swapping out my hDex augs with hSta. This did improve my spikes of inc dmg. I wish I would have parsed everything during the swap out but I didn't. The cleric of the group noticed a significant improvement.
  15. The real Sandaormo Augur

    Can't just pull out random parses and say there is a trend, that other tank was prolly in the kitchen making a sandwich while you were spamming your Necromatic finger bone every time it popped.
    It's too hard to compare apples to Oranges unless your standing right next to me in the same group and say "go".

    Warriors should never parse near the top on a full burn when other classes are paying attention and hitting the dps buttons given to them. Where a warrior can shine is say on a trash clear or in group content. Again I bring up Effort though, any tank can plop a shield on and stand there.
  16. Szilent Augur

    I presented a lived reality. It is not an idea or a hypothesis, it Is What Is. A bare fact: I gear for hero dex and out damage my compatriots 100% of the time in actual battles that go on in EverQuest. Typically, as presented, it's not remotely close.
  17. Szilent Augur

    And yet, despite all the factors you present that may impact the results, the results are consistent. I tank adds, they tank adds. I use discs, they use discs. We're all still warriors, full time. Being A Warrior Includes DPS. For those in the back:

    Being A Warrior Includes DPS.

    fwiw, I think an expansion's first tier 1 event (Griklor) in farm mode for a top5 guild fielding a full raid is pretty silly as a point of comparison, but here y'are:

    /GU Combined (8) as: Griklor the Restless in 287s, 136.2m @455596sdps | #16 Szilent 113.0m@378.1k sdps | #24 Warrior + pets 82183k@274.9k sdps | #29 Warrior 77592k@259.5k sdps | #37 Warrior + pets 56929k@190.4k sdps | #44 Warrior 30947k@103.5k sdps
  18. p2aa Augur

    You vastly downplay the impact of the factors I presented.
    A tank that stayed whole fight with 2Hander only DPSing mobs versus a tank that caught adds most of the time, then back to DPS here and there when the situation is under control.
    This will greatly impact your DPS parse at the end.
    Also the disc used will play a big impact too.

    You did 113 milllion of a total of 1 362 million damage ? I see 136,2 m on your parse, but it cannot be this because then you would have done 83 % of your total raid damage.
    If you did 31 less million DMG, to be in line with the next warrior, the fight would have last between 6 and 7 more sec (31 x 287 / 1 362).
    On your other fights, doing the same calculation, I obtained max 30 more sec.

    For getting 0 mitigation benefit, it's not an an enough good advantage to go HDex imo.
    This remains my personal opinion of course.
    Obviously, this reasoning is for a tank class. Which is what warriors are first. DPS is a secondary job.
  19. Szilent Augur

    I'm not out here theory crafting. I'm also, rest assured, not slacking in the least on tanking roles. What I am doing is reporting the actual damage dealt in actual raids in EverQuest. I'm not downplaying or upplaying anything. Actual results that actually happen while I and every other warrior participating are doing the entire warrior job involved in winning actual raids. I provided parses from events with lots of adds, in which all warriors would be tanking, you dismissed them. You asked for a Griklor raid with no adds, now you're dismissing that?

    no what I did was grab the warriors' contributions from Gamparse the easy way, which shuffles the event total off the top line. You're welcome to get at Beimeith about that. Just because you're so special to me, I went to the trouble of reloading my log so you can see that Griklor obviously had the same 4.4B total hp that Griklor has had twice every week this year for every raid force in EverQuest. It's not variable, he's had the same total in your raids every week this year, too:

    /GU Combined (8) as: Griklor the Restless in 299s, 4,432.6m @14824594sdps | #16 Szilent 113.0m@378.1k sdps | #24 Warrior + pets 82183k@274.9k sdps | #29 Warrior 77592k@259.5k sdps | #37 Warrior + pets 56929k@190.4k sdps | #44 Warrior 30947k@103.5k sdps

    "a secondary job" that every tank is doing in every raid isn't a secondary job. It's also the job.
    Chopin.Xegony likes this.
  20. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    How are you testing that?

    3 items, hp atm after I take them off:

    Ring) 10071 hp 55 sta - 416714
    Back) 10224 hp 56 sta - 416498
    Mask) 10110 hp 93 sta - 416036

    So doing some math, X being raw hp multiplier and Y being sta multiplier:

    1) 0*X + 0*Y = 0 (so ring baseline)

    2) 153*X + 1*Y = 216
    3) 39*X + 38*Y = 678

    Y = 216-153X

    So

    39x + 8208 - 5814X = 678

    or

    7530 = 5775X

    X = 1.3039

    Obviously rounding at various points affects things, cause (for a paladin) I'm supposed to have 31.35% hp mod from Natural Durability stacking with 3% from Sanctity of the keepers (I see PE had the hp component rolled into ND at some point).

    But going with it, as these are real world numbers.

    So testing the back and mask numbers:

    153(1.3039) + y = 216, y = 16.5 (so 16 or 17 depending on rounding)

    39(1.3039) + 38 y = 678, y = 16.5 (so 16 or 17 depending on rounding)

    Assuming warriors get more than knights from sta (would assume so, though for heroics it was never explicitly stated thusly), you're numbers are probably good.

    So an 800 hsta swing for a knight would be 13,200 hp + 2% shielding (on average) versus combined like 1800-1900 dex and agi (because of how they weight augs).

    If raids were actually hard, that might change my opinion, but with 500k hp buffed on raids as is, it isn't worth it to me. I'd rather have the agi/dex, as long as raids are as easy as they are.

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