Tank Parses

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Sirene_Fippy, Apr 11, 2016.

  1. p2aa Augur

    As i said it in this thread, it seems to me that Heroic agility impacts AC too in the "AC sum", which is the part of the AC formula that shifts the DI of mob to some lower level ?

    Also, is raid boss strikethrough impacting the miss % chance ?

    The shielding part of HSta is not making an enough big impact, 230 dmg less per hit doesn't change anything imo.

    A look at magelos of wars that went full HAgi and those that went full HSta, I see a difference of around 400 AC versus 8 000 HP

    So the debate would not put us back to the old days AC versus HP thread ?
    As long as you can survive a mob round and not be one rounded, would not more AC smooth out all the hits, and would be better ?
  2. Zebarathe New Member

    At this time i do believe avoidance is slightly better then shielding for the gains with hagi vs the gains from hsta. Main reason being is that they haven't worked out the proper hsta to shielding ratio. its currently 1% for every 400 hsta after you hit 35% shielding. I think this is to high compared to 10 to 20 hagi for 1 avoidance.

    Once they correct the ratio for shielding to hsta i do believe hsta will be used over hagi until shielding is maxed. Maybe we will see this when the next exp is released.
  3. Riou EQResource


    Strikethrough doesn't counter your "Miss" only the actual Avoidances (Riposte, Block/Parry, Dodge, Shield Block, Staff Block). Mob Accuracy counters your "Miss" rate.

    Last question is your personal opinion on which you value more, keep in mind in group game you have less countering you, so things like hDex being closer to its max value (2x hAgi) and more DPS shouldn't be ignored. Especially if you are something like an SK and have a lot of melee hp leach abilities.
  4. p2aa Augur

    I use to be the MT for Vim and I try to one tank it.
    As I parse each Vim fight, I looked at the data for the last 6 months i can have on him.
    I took the fight i received the highest dmg taken, it's going from a range of 10 million dmg taken to 52 million damage taken.
    What is interesting is that my gear has evolved during these 6 months, so going from no type 5 TBM aug and roughly same heroic dex / agi numbers to nearly full TBM raid gear ( I miss a few slot that are still TDS ones), HAgi favored (3 augs that are 40 heroic non agi ones), i'm reaching atm 1050 + in this stat.
    So from going full TDS to nearly full TBM raid, I won around 550 heroic agility and maybe 1 000 AC too.

    The results are kinda surprising me
    From the first parses to the last ones, all parameters have hardly moved :
    Average hit : 24 600 for first parses, 24 000 for most recent ones.
    Defended % : an average of 8 % for all parses, 10 % for my first parse, 10 % for my last parse (38 M dmg taken for first, 31 M dmg taken so same dmg threesold taken).
    These 8 % go into around 4 % Parry, 2 % Riposte, 1 % Dodge, 1 % Block
    Miss % : an average of 12 %, 11% for my first parse, 11 % for my last parse
    So Vim hit % success = 80 % around.

    So on a TBM raid boss, despite + 550 heroic agi and + 1 000 AC, the parameters look like the same.

    I start to wonder if raids warriors, providing their main job is to MT Raid Bosses, are not better with HSta.
    Yes, on raid adds, it will be another story, as you can avoid more to them and their accuracy is prolly lower than raid bosses, i'm starting to wonder if HDex is not the best for group gear players, HAgi the best for raid gear knights (that tank adds more than wars), and HSta for warriors (that tank raid bosses more than tanking adds).
    And warriors that aren't in the TO will be on some add tanking duty, so would loosing 400 Hagi in the type 5 aug make them take more dmg from raid adds as they will avoid less ?


    Still haven't made my mind on HAgi versus HSta for raid warriors, still looking to see some other opinions (and i would hate to loose some visible AC by removing some heroic agility but if Hsta is the most efficient way then be it :))
  5. Ravengloome Augur

    Looks like you found the glass ceiling on heroics and AC. I found similar results and have stuck with HDEX because I still try to sneak a burn in. But otherwise the Hagi v Stam is so underwhelming.
  6. Zaknaffein Augur

    HP > AC
    Heroic Stam > Heroic Agi now with the changes to stats.

    I've been saying this for a long time now. Others will eventually come around to this notion and realize it's true at some point.

    Parsing trash mobs won't give you any idea of what's better, there are too many factors to include and think about than just a tank and spank pars result of trash. What you see on paper doesn't transfer to what happens Live while playing.

    Playing a warrior for over a decade and seeing first hand what stats and buffs have more of an impact to my survivability from tanking raids/boss mobs is better than what I'll see from random zone trash pars.
  7. Ravengloome Augur

    Zak no one said anything about parsing against trash mobs.
  8. Riou EQResource


    Well 1 thing to keep in mind also is that we just don't know current raid mobs heroic strikethrough value and regular strikethrough to cancel it further, a raid for example could have 1500 heroic worth so you see no gains until then.

    TDS Tier 3 group zone mobs had 500 heroic strikethrough points worth, no grouper could hit this in their main stat even if they 100% went for it during TDS, so it doesn't seem like they care about the value being surpass-able at current expansion or not, and Raid mobs have way crazier stats then Group game mobs.

    Not sure when this started happening, maybe after SoD when they started giving the values to everything including group mobs? It's always felt like since then they just keep sky rocketing the values instead of thinking what the values do all in their effort to make content "harder".

    At least it was a tiny bit fixed starting with Dzarns Tower of Rot, and he even fixed TDS and on for mob AC to be relative to max player Attack.
  9. Ravengloome Augur

    Heroic Strikethrough became a thing in Underfoot. (I remember a dev posting about it but i can't find it)

    Starting at Brath (in era) IIRC you had 0% avoidance, 1% tops miss on those mobs
  10. p2aa Augur

    One problem with going for the HSta route is that, even if you aug all your type 5 for HSta, it's hard to reach 1200 + in it, to get 37 shielding.
    800 +, aka 36 shielding, is reached by HAgi or HDex guys.
    This is due to the fact that most AC aug > 40 for tanks (which is the min to get as AC on our augs now) are more HAgi or HDex favored.
  11. Raptorjesus5 Augur


    What specifically makes HSta better? Does the shielding really make a noticeable difference or is it more about the HP giving you better burst damage survivable?
  12. gotwar Augur

    1200 will give you 38 shielding. The first heroic tier is reached at 400 heroic stamina (36 shielding). Heroic agility affects avoidance and strikethrough, while heroic dex is combat effects and accuracy.

    In raid gear it is easy to reach 1200 in a heroic stat. In group gear you'll top out close to 1100 with some clever tribute additions.
  13. Riou EQResource

    Probably from Raid mobs having such inflated stats it diminishes a lot of what you can gain against them. Doesn't apply to group game though.
    Raptorjesus5 likes this.
  14. p2aa Augur

    I have swapped from HAgi set to HSta since 3 weeks now.
    Here are the results on Vim (TBM raid boss), on some parse of similar around mobs attempts on me and dmg taken.
    Keep in mind that my parry rate will be impacted by flash of anger and co that can be used (I have put % of other def stuff even if HAgi does not impact it as it's always interesting to see).

    HAgi + Avoidance versus HSta
    Parse 1 (older parse, HAgi favored) with around + 200 HAgi, + 21 Avoidance compared to parse 2 :
    52 million dmg taken, 2 703 attempts
    Average hit = 24 384
    Defended % = 8,1 % (1,8 % riposte, 3,9 % parry, 1,5 % dodge, 0,9 % block)
    Miss % = 12 %

    Parse 2 (recent parse, HSta favored)
    50 million dmg taken, 2 734 attempts
    Average hit = 23 198
    Defended % = 8,1 % (1,6 % riposte, 4 % parry, 1,5 % dodge, 1 % block)
    Miss % = 13,4 %

    For sure i had more than 800 HSta for parse 2, a doubt for parse 1, but i'm not saying it explains the difference of average hit taken. On another recent parse with more than 800 Hsta, my average hit was 24 186. So no conclusion to draw from HSta on average hit.

    The most interesting is the miss rate. It's higher in the HSta parse. Once again, HSta doesn't impact your miss rate, so no conclusion to draw from here.

    But around + 200 Hagi and + 21 avoidance didn't make me miss more on a raid boss.

    The tanking graph looks also the same between the 2 parses

    Avoidance only
    Here are 2 parses, when I was HAgi favored, the only difference is one was before the may patch that changed the mod 2 stats, the other was after the may patch

    Parse 1 (04-11-2016)
    30 million dmg taken, 1 533 attempts
    Average hit = 24 293
    Defended % = 6,7 % (1,6 % riposte, 3,2 % parry, 1,5 % dodge, 0,4 % block)
    Miss % = 12,2 %

    Parse 2 (06-08-2016), + 32 Avoidance compared to parse 1
    30 million dmg taken, 1 601 attempts
    Average hit = 23 201
    Defended % = 7,4 % (1,7 % riposte, 2,8 % parry, 2 % dodge, 1 % block)
    Miss % = 11,7 %

    Once again the miss rate is not less important with the added avoidance.
    Also, my dodge rate has improved, but too bad Avoidance doesn't impact dodge rate, and I had the same HAgi number around for these 2 parses.

    HAgi + Avoidance + AC
    Here are 3 parses.
    The first parse was when I was with nearly no TBM raid gear.
    The next 2 are when I was nearly full TBM raid gear, with HAgi favored.
    In Parses 2 and 3, I had around + 500 HAgi, + 33 Avoidance, + 1 000 visible AC than parse 1

    Parse 1 (no TBM raid gear)
    28 million dmg taken, 1 375 attempts
    Average hit = 25 509
    Defended % = 8,1 % (1,1 % riposte, 4,5 % parry, 1,3 % dodge, 1,2 % block)
    Miss % = 12,1 %

    Parse 2 (TBM raid gear)
    31 million dmg taken, 1 676 attempts
    Average hit = 23 844
    Defended % = 10 % (1,4 % riposte, 6,3 % parry, 2,1 % dodge, 0,2 % block)
    Miss % = 12,5 %

    Parse 3 (TBM raid gear, same stats than Parse 2)
    30 million dmg taken, 1 621 attempts
    Average hit = 23 201
    Defended % = 7,4 % (1,7 % riposte, 2,8 % parry, 2 % dodge, 0,9 % block)
    Miss % = 11,58 %

    The tanking graph looks also the same between the 3 parses, despite + 500 HAgi and + 1 000 visible AC.
    HAgi seems to play a role on the part of AC that decrease the dmg taken (step 17 of Dzarn formula), but this role seems minor.
    OK I believe the average hit has maybe been reduced than 1 K, thanks to the added AC, but it's fun to see that for example Parse 1 shows a highest hit taken of 153 k, Parse 2 a highest hit taken of 159 k, and Parse 3 a highest hit of 165 k, go figure lol.

    Conclusion

    Parsing raid bosses cannot be as long as parsing for days test server or random trash mob, but this is the nature of raids. You don't spend hours forever in front of raid boss.
    Despite comparison try of same sample data, I have not been able to demonstrate that raid boss Miss % is impacted by HAgi and Avoidance.
    Also, the impact of HAgi on Dodge number is not satisfactory.
    Can you avoid 1 more hit with being HAgi favored (that would negate any HP pool advantage) ? maybe, but it seems to me that the raid boss fight length will be most likely too short for you to avoid this 1 more hit ? Keep in mind too that i'm in a low / mid tier raiding guild (I don't know if we consider that some guilds right now that haven't finished TBM are "mid-tier"), and that high end tier raiding guilds will kill the events again faster, with warriors taking less dmg overall on them, and therefore making them less able to avoid 1 more hit ?
    So I'm sticking for now to HSta, because I'm not convinced of benefit of HAgi on raid bosses.
    Tucoh likes this.
  15. Tucoh Augur

    Nice post, p2aa, very informative.
  16. shiftie Augur

    Did you die either time?

    Did your raid win the event?

    Those are the only 2 relevant questions. If the answer is no, I did not die. And yes, my raid won. Then you have made the right gear choices. The rest is superfluous. Parsing raid tanking would require every tank across all servers to data dump logs and then collectively interpret the data, or the devs to pull back the curtain a bit more.
  17. Tucoh Augur

    If he did one parse with hAGI and his raid succeeded, then did another with hSTA and his raid failed, would it be because he switched to hSTA?

    Or does his gear choice play a small, but meaningful role in his performance and an even smaller role in his raid's performance, and every individual should do whatever they can to improve their performance to help maximize the raid's chance of success?
    Vdidar and Brohg like this.
  18. shiftie Augur

    You can't accurately parse what he's trying to parse in a raid setting unless you could do so for hours. There isn't sufficient data to normalize. Heroics are mostly useless against raid mobs. Which has been known. Extra Hp matter from heroics much like a sugar pill. He could probably gear for hcha and still be successful because the gear sets basically get all toons to near the same levels
  19. p2aa Augur


    I had a look back, and I died one time in each of the 30 mil parse, and didn't die in the 2 50 mil parses compared.
    So there is not a case of a parse I died that I compare to a parse that I didn't die.
    All the events posted have been won too.
  20. p2aa Augur

    Here is the result for a T2 TBM raid boss, Emollious

    I had around + 280 HAgi and + 14 Avoidance in Parse 1 compared to Parse 2.
    I didn't die in both and the raid was won.

    Parse 1
    23 mil dmg taken, 1 339 attempts
    Defended % = 3 % (0,7 % Riposte, 2,2 % Parry, 0 % Dodge, 0 % Block)
    Miss % = 24 %

    Parse 2
    24 mil dmg taken, 1 585 attempts
    Defended % = 4,4 % (1,6 % Riposte, 2,8 % Parry, 0 % Dodge, 0 % Block)
    Miss % = 28 %

    Once again, the miss % is not less good in Parse 2 despite less HAgi and less Avoidance.
    I have 0 Dodge and 0 Block in other Emollious parses too.