Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Fintank, Feb 11, 2017.
This might be the weakest position you could possibly have taken in the debate.
On a side note: I have not read a single good argument for warrior dps and tanking being at current levels.
The thing that comes closest is "but I like it the way it is", with people actually arguing against the other roles in Everquest, against pullers, CCers, arguing contrafactually against warrior dps being high, or arguing against telling the truth.
To adress the above point made by some bard:
My group (3 RL friends) is non-raiders, the very anti-thesis of elite players. We played with a warrior once, when EOK came out. Said warrior matced and ocassionally outdpssed the rest of the group (not individuals, the entire group).
Tanks play as if they are already ahead an expansion or two, with regards to how challenging content is. This makes it hard to have fun together with tanks, for most other classes. If you remove CC and pulling from the game, the number of class roles needed goes down, and a large number of classes become obsolete.
So the ultimate raid force should now be just 48 warriors, + 1 CLR + 1 SHM + 1 BST + 1 BRD + 1 ENC +1 RNG ?
Maybe a bard pr group?
Every raid is easy mode at this point in the game. Not enough resources to make challenging content for the top end. The last hard expansion was VOA and we lost like half the active guilds because of it. My guild and I would love hard content, unfortunately it just won't happen.
As to aria, I believe a few rogue CRTs pushed for those nerfs not I.
If you honestly think warrior DPS is the sole reason why guilds beat EOK you are delusional. As I said before, we don't put warriors in DPS groups on current content, only would happen during farm time if at all.
So some people decided to test tank dps in melee with full ADPS group. And use these results to balance a whole class, and wanting to make it like it's happening every day. How much time does it happen that a tank is in a melee with full ADPS group ? All these parses posted with some full ADPS aren't happening every day. This is just rare, because yes in 99 % of raid guilds tanks are in tank group and DPS are in DPS group. So once again, 1% of the playerbase wants to dictate how class should be balanced. It's amazing how Drogbaa and his friends are so selfish that they think only on themselves and not to the rest of the class majority playerbase.
Balancing a class means you need to look at all the situations. If people in these 1% guild want to min / max everything, that's their problem, but it shouldn't be the problem of all the rest of the 99 % playerbase.
As to the large number of mages posting in these thread, thanks for having confirmed me that some of you are here just to seek a "revenge" "oh my pet mitigation has been reduced, i'm going to nerf ya in return". That's really childish.
As a group geared warrior I agree that our DPS is out of scale. It's fun being OP and slicing through content, but it's not fun to out shadow DPS classes. Especially with how easy it is to just hit a few cooldowns and auto-attack your way to victory over mages/necros/monks executing perfect rotations.
I saw a few people arguing against that in the last couple balance threads, but what I haven't seen is parses from non-berserkers that blow the 300k DPS warrior DPS parses out of the water. If you're a monk, mage, or necro and can put out more than 300k DPS under normal circumstances, post it.
I think there's several problems with DPS balance right now, and they can be fixed in numerable ways, but here's my recommendation:
1. Decrease Melee Mitigation in 2H mode (To ensure that warrior's can't tank current content with 2H).
2. Reduce warrior damage by 25% (bunch of different ways to do this)
3. Reduce ability for warriors to riposte multiple mobs (Putting a timer on it would do this nicely, right now I pull as many mobs as I can stay alive against to maximize riposte DPS, which is ridiculous).
All three of those would hurt me a lot and drastically reduce my kill speed, but I think it'd be fair. It also wouldn't fix a lot of the DPS issues, which I think could be helped by:
4. Reduce berserker DPS.
5. Increase mage, necro and monk DPS.
As a counter to all of this, you can really only tank with a 2H in "easy" content. If you rolled into EoK with TBM raid gear, the group content was already outclassed. Once you get EoK group gear, the EoK group content is now outclassed. And while this thinking really only benefits tanks, perhaps every group should have a tank? I know a lot don't.
P2aa. Wile i agree with some of you logic in general. It doesent apply here. Did tanks need a dps boost when tankning. Yes i think they did. But the increase need to be in a form that limits it to when tankning only and does not benefit from any adps. But its silly you think say warrs deserved 45% on all the time pure dmg scaleble buff that gets amplfyed by adps classes bard the most but others aswell and in all stances. Knights is also way out of hand but to fix them its more complicated and not just cuz of dps.
Alot of ppl wanna get rid of stances but that isent smart unless they retool warr Class with more encomaseing diwnwards scaleing abilitys that can be as effective as self healing is for both knights. At same time we want eatch tank keep their own identity.
In short tank scaleble dps needs to go down . And added in its place tanking non scaleble dps in tanking mode added but not as it is now.
Nerf monks kkthx
LOL nerf monks? there is no meat left on that bone to pick at sir. k thx
This thread needs more charts and graphs.
Your still posting. So theres still things to nerf
1. 2h Proficiency already cripples tanking ability pretty well. Not only do you lose the 30% mitigation from tanking stance and innate benefits of shield use, but you also lose a good chunk of parry and dodge. Lets compare the stances:
Two handed proficiency -
Increase 2H Blunt Damage Modifier v2 by 110%
Increase 2H Slashing Damage Modifier v2 by 110%
Increase 2H Piercing Damage Modifier v2 by 110%
Decrease Chance to Parry by 60%
Decrease Chance to Dodge by 60%
Defensive Proficiency -
Shield Block Chance (15%)
Increase Proc Modifier by 20%
Increase Melee Mitigation by 30%
2. What really changed going into EoK for Warriors? Look at what changed and see what needs adjusted or scaled down slightly.
3. No changes to riposte. Altering game long core mechanics at this point in the game is a little silly.
4. The big thing with Zerkers right now is they had some changed made that greatly affected synergy of their abilities. A couple of them likely need scaled down a tad, but all in all they don't really need a massive re-evaluation.
5. Increase Beastlords also. Beastlords and Monks are pretty much equal now, hitting between 100-150k dps on average depending on fight. Numbers tend to favor Monks on burns, and Beasts on sustained.
Now, that being said, SKs. Sks didn't really have a ton of stuff change, its just our changes scaled fairly well. As a note, during beta we didn't push for significant DPS gains... we wanted a little better sustained DPS. Here is what changed for us going into EoK that is contributing to our DPS being better:
1. Innate Darkblade. AA line was retooled, with the final rank being 120% melee dmg boost instead of 90% which was its previous value.
2. HT now has the potential to critical, both on the Initial DD, and the DoT portion. This doesn't always happen obviously, but when it does it is glorious. (2.3m DD, 383k/tick crit values)
3. Touch of the Cursed / Soul Abrasion boosts. This boosted our innate lifetap proc to hitting for about 120k on crits, and healing for 75% of that.
4. Spell foci. While most everything got 2% dmg upgrades across the board per rank, we asked the devs to re-evaluate our spear line. Rather than retool the line or adding a second line on a different recast which we suggested, they chose to alter the foci to 10% per rank giving an overall 40% boost vs 8% for most all other spells.
As you can see, nothing idivually was very significant in the big picture. Spear is a 30 sec recast, HT is a 24min reuse, and ToTC doesn't fire all that often. The myriad of changes however added up pretty well.
The number of oligophrenic arguments posted in this thread is confirming my suspicion that its proposers are seeking revenge on common sense, good arguments, and basic reasoning. It is understandable, almost fair you could say, since these elements has caused so much suffering for the people who do not grasp them.
@p2aa, the group you are referring to is the Coalition of Conjurors.
Uhmmm except I wasn't in RoI in 2012? I was in the glorious Shahrazad, reigning as DPS RTL and all-around--king.
it was f*cking Jerus and Brogett, and I loved Jerus but goddamn the masochist got his own class cripplied and actually expected compensation in other areas next beta... and what did bards get? more fists rammed up their for the next 4 years.
lol if nerfs caused that sort of thing, with as many as we have gotten, I d have quit posting and playing a long time before just today.
If you read my post, you put the melee dps on the bench, because there were too many people...
But there is a bigger issue here. We both agree that putting melee dps in a tank group is ridiculous. But you see no problem with tanks being in dps groups. Why? Cause tanks should be able to dps. But dang any dps class that can tank something.
And yes, the coalition of conjurors do hate warriors. You should see the blood soaked alters.
After doing very extensive analysis I've put together this completely accurate and professional looking chart. Hope it helps!
Monk is way to high on this graph. The one you used must have been hacking.
Separate names with a comma.