Tank DPS Nerf Required

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Fintank, Feb 11, 2017.

  1. Aonodor New Member

  2. fransisco Augur

    Old parses are no good you say....
    New parses that prove the same part are also no good because... reasons....

    Basically, no parse that shows tanks are to powerful will be acceptable, yes?
    IblisTheMage and Vdidar like this.
  3. fransisco Augur

    If a tank can fill in for a dps class, why have the dps class? My mage certainly cannot fill in for a warrior. Wizards cannot off tank if the SK is having a bad night. The way things are, if there are too many players on, a wise raid leader will bench a mage and pick a warrior.
    Why? The warrior will do more dps, and can tank raid mobs if needed as well.

    If this is the new normal, why even recruit dps classes?
  4. Rakknar Elder

    I play two of the most hated classes right now. I expect an adjustment at some point, but if some people get their way and make it so CC and/or a puller is necessary and group dps ultimately goes down (because no one is pining for an increase, just nerfs), you will just be hurting the average EQ player. You aint gonna stop the Rakk. I play a bard (puller if needed). If CC is needed I'll swap in my level 105 Chanter. If real healing is needed instead of mercs, I'll swap in my 105 shaman and/or 105 druid. The Rakk is always fully buffed thanks to his stable of boxable alts. I'll still finish progression first while the common man sits lfg or looking for a specific class. People quit the game when they lfg too long for too many days.

    Nerfs may be necessary. But other players of the same class actually do struggle for...reasons...and the community isn't too forthcoming on giving specifics on helping folks. Point of fact, a ranger asked for help on dps and not one sinlge ranger main replied. I guess rangers are rightfully scared of nerfs too. I know, I was an op group geared ranger alt out dpsing raid geared monks in TBM.

    Personally I am against nerfs. Nothing I have seen is game breaking. The real evil in nerfs is that they happen after all of us "elites" beat everything. The "filthy casuals" never get to experience "easy mode". Some casuals never get to beat anything. Personally, I have beaten EoK and maxed AAs. I could sit out until the next expansion and "exploit" the next op combination or ability. See you in sebilis!
  5. RangerGuy Elder

    nerfs are stupid but its a bit funny hearing tanks defend themselves right now. tanks in general were out in full force in the pet nerf thread back when pets could tank singles with just a merc and required long reuse tools to handle 2 or 3 mobs. piping that no class should be able to do dps and tank like that.

    yet here we are with tanks pulling 2-5 mobs at a time when sword and board tanking putting out significant dps combined. or tanking singles with 2h and putting out dps level dps. and its a ok. we just need some graphs showing pets doing one part of a giant tanking equation better to get pets nerfed for this level of tank dps.

    can i have my pet tanking restored now? or are we gonna continue to believe that pets taking di's lower while dodging nothing and not having fast reuse tank tools was the end all be all of tanking still
    fransisco likes this.
  6. Warpeace Augur

    Not all tank classes are, check your facts before hopping on the nerf the crap out of all tanks bandwagon. Your tanking or DPSing. If a tank is "tanking a mob" with a 2 hander there is no real threat of the mob killing them.

    If some really believe Tanks (Not just one specific Tank class) are putting out high sustained DPS numbers maybe those DPS classes should check what they are doing to be bad at DPS.
  7. RangerGuy Elder

    Tanks geared in EoK group gear in defensive stance can tank 2 pretty much effortlessly. 3 with a real healer and using tools, 4 if they are really working at it and using longer reuse stuff at times for those 4. Combine it all and it adds up. In that situation no no one is claiming tanks are out dpsing real dps classes but doing 70k dps while tanking 2 to 3 mobs is doing dps and tanking at much higher levels than what was used as rallying call to nerf pets. If your not pushing it with a 2h'er with singles then your just playing bad which you don't tune around.

    If you in EoK group gear and are not severely under aa levels, aug levels then the only reason not to use a 2h on singles is lazy. Run tribute, run power sources and get buffs and its pretty easy. Or tank 2 and use defensive stance but either way your having your cake and eating it too currently.

    Don't come here and say well i can't tank 1 with a 2h or 2 with defensive stance but your wearing something like tbm group gear, dont have augs, dont use tank tribute or ps, dont have all your tank aa done just because you can't be bothered to do all that and then claim something different then what other people are seeing every day.
  8. Vrinda Augur

    Thanks, Vdidar, for motivating me to do some parsing. To put this into perspective compared to caster dps, I checked to see exactly what my wizard could put out by just continually nuking a combat dummy until he ran oom, which would be the caster equivalent of turning on auto attack and then tabbing out to read Redit ... except you have to be clicking keys to get spells to go off.

    For background, the combat dummy was set to level 100 with no body type. My wizard is 105 with TBM raid sleeves and gloves, and I have Irae Faycite Shard: Ethereal Skyblaze. I used CotF t2 raid pants, since the focus shaves 0.1 second off spell cast time compared to the EoK t2 group pants I also own, allowing spell gems to refresh in time that I only needed to alternate between my three highest damage spells to be continuously casting. Because I was doing this in the guild hall with a combat dummy, the twincast effect triggered by my Claw of the Flameweaver Rk.III doesn't wear off as it would under normal circumstances. This entire first parse is done with Twincast Rk. III on (from a prior parse where I used Claw), so I didn't cast Claw as I normally would while in group or raid to try to trigger twincast and other benefits. I can't overemphasize that every single spell was twincast, and that would never happen outside a burn that's up once every ten minutes. I used Kerafyrm's Prismatic Familiar IV and Pyromancy XXIV, but I did not use a hedgewizard brew or fire pot, which I normally use only on raids.

    I started with Ethereal Fuse Rk. III (the highest damage, since it potentially could cast Skyblaze plus another ethereal nuke), then Ethereal Skyblaze Rk. III, and finally Ethereal Rimeblast Rk. III. The dummy was prepped with tash (clicky) and Lower Element (AA) rank 3 to reduce/eliminate resists. I did not click forces between casts during the GCD, nor did I make any attempt to recover mana or minimize mana consumption by casting Fuse only when I had a GoM.

    In five attempts, the best I got was this:
    Combat Dummy Caza on 2/12/2017 in 303sec

    --- DMG: 29227716 @ 96461 sdps (96461 dps in 303s) [100%]
    ------ Total: 29227716 -- DirDmg: 29227716
    ------ Normal rate: 51.2% (29.4% of DMG) -- Critical rate: 48.8% (70.6% of DMG)
    ------ Attempts: 254 -- Hits: 254 -- Misses: 0 -- Defended: 0 -- Accuracy: 100%

    --- DMG: 29227716 @ 96461 sdps (96461 dps in 303s) [100%]

    Special: 7: 7th Vet G: Glyph M: Secrets K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
    Produced by GamParse v1.5.1.3

    Remember, these were 100% twincast. I then clicked Twincast off and tried again without using Claw to sacrifice initial damage for the chance at improving other aspects of my casting. What I got without perpetual twincast was this:
    Combat Dummy Caza on 2/12/2017 in 212sec

    --- DMG: 11904491 @ 56153 sdps (56153 dps in 212s) [100%]
    ------ Total: 11904491 -- DirDmg: 11501291 -- DoT: 403200
    ------ Normal rate: 63.9% (31.8% of DMG) -- Critical rate: 36.1% (68.2% of DMG)
    ------ Attempts: 119 -- Hits: 119 -- Misses: 0 -- Defended: 0 -- Accuracy: 100%

    --- DMG: 11904491 @ 56153 sdps (56153 dps in 212s) [100%]

    Special: 7: 7th Vet G: Glyph M: Secrets K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
    Produced by GamParse v1.5.1.3

    If I were doing the things a wizard normally does (Claw, force AAs, clickies, Dicho/Fuse when you get a GoM, rains) to maximize dps while conserving mana, I'd get results somewhere in between these two parses.

    Or I could just level my warrior to 105, position him near the mob, and turn on auto attack.

    Edit: Before anyone else points it out, I realized after the first set of parses that DoT damage wasn't turned on, so Pyro damage wasn't being reported. I turned it on for my non-twincast parses, which actually improves the second posted parse slightly.
  9. p2aa Augur

    Lol at the old HA parse, I think people have showed that it's completly biased.
    The Queen parse, with warriors in DPS group using 2H stance. Once again, tanks aren't in DPS groups in raids, benefiting with full support of shamans / bards etc. So stop linking some parses like this, which is not standing for usual situation. If you want normal situation, link a tank parse in a tank group, where tanks are. Once again, if you replace melee DPS by tanks in your raids, it means that your melee DPS are bad. And lowering tank DPS won't solve it, a bad DPS player will remain bad. Also, where do you put the melee DPS that lost their spot to tanks ? In tank groups with clerics ? Wonderful raid composition.
    I lol at Seldom too that wants warriors (and we assume SK too) DPS nerf, but don't touch pallies, what will be the result ? Paladins burn higher than wars and SK, and sustain DPS as good as wars and SK. Not sure who he wants to fool lol.
    Ah I forgot, these mages that are vocal about nerfing warriors, just because they try to get a revenge of pets having seen their defensive abilities reduced a few years ago and think warriors are responsible of it. Again more pathetic.
  10. p2aa Augur

    In how much time ? Stating some fact, with not linking parse and not saying any duration, is pure .
  11. p2aa Augur

    If the raid needs DPS slot and some DPS are being benched for a warrior to do the job, I suggest these DPS review how they DPS.
    End of story.
  12. p2aa Augur

    Rogues in my guild have DPS group slots, and warriors are in tanks groups. Also, your example is biased right at start. Raid with 30 players and want to speak of class balance with this ?

    I feel for you indeed, to have to sit out your bad DPS so that you can DPS and tank in your raids. Also, warriors parse 300 k sustained with only 5 buttons in how much time ? Propaganda at his best.
  13. Sancus Augur

    .... I can't even.
    fransisco and Drogba like this.
  14. gotwar Augur

    I dug this out just for you. Maestro of Rancor:

    A ghostly melody in 206s, 849021k @4121461sdps --- #3 Gotwarx 63849k@309944sdps (319243dps in 200s) [7.52%]

    Was only beaten by two Zerkers. My Wizard friend, who would feel right at home in any of the top 3 guilds for EOK, parsed at 300k.

    7 Buttons: Vehement rage, Rage of Rallos Zek, War Sheol's, Second Spire, Mighty Strike, Brutal Onslaught, Offensive Discipline.

    Then I hit my mash key. F->F->F->F->F->F until the end of the fight.

    I also hit Vehement at the same time as everything else, which any knowledgeable Warrior will know is a mistake. And while the adds are combined on this parse, I didn't hit rampage while they were up, so I basically got 0 dps on them. I am lazy and bad. A skilled Warrior would easily add another 50k to this, or more.

    And yes, 30. That means our fights are longer, so if anything our parses are skewed towards lower DPS (longer fight = smaller numbers). It also means that, in general, our ADPS support is less than stellar, though I will admit this was taken in a superstar group.

    Have you ever considered that maybe you just suck at DPS, p2aa?

    Can't wait to hear why this one is biased because it wasn't done on the third friday during the second harvest moon while wearing a fedora and giving a blood sacrifice to Rallos Zek.


    edit: Have I mentioned that my Warrior is using group focus cleave? My warrior is using group focus cleave. Yay Selrach's.
    fransisco likes this.
  15. Drogba Augur

    That is exactly the kind of situation to which we should be measuring. Tanks are in DPS groups in some raids, just not yours.

    The point of it is, if all things are made equal, then they are better DPS than a lot of the current DPS classes.

    The dps they put out on a 800+ second raid parse with adps translates to the group game too. I've been in hundreds of groups since EoK came out and it's pretty clear to see.

    If you have a warrior in group that isn't tanking with some melee dps and adps (exception: berserker) , watch the melee dps get outparsed when you combine it all (If the warrior is a good dpser and trying).
    Yimin, Manaelil and fransisco like this.
  16. Piemastaj Augur

    Like i said, it only makes sense to Warriors.

    Before it was 'well if we can only tank and do no DPS, that is what pets should do no DPS'. Now, its 'well when im not tanking I must be able to do DPS, but no other classes can be allowed to do the same thing'.

    The amount of backtracking and sidestepping going on is quite amazing. We could literally go back thru the years of threads where tanks used our same arguments to try and prove why other classes should not be allowed to tank. And the entire logic behind it was 'well they do too much DPS to tank anywhere near where I am tanking!'.

    The group should not matter, IF they are put into a DPS group and are literally only losing to Bers (which most would agree are really far ahead of the rest) that is a problem.
  17. Vdidar Augur

    it doesnt matter what i say or link people like you will try to discredit it somehow.
  18. segap Augur

    You can't tell full potential without equalizing other variables. Reminds me of complaining about mage pets being able to tank better without using any defensive abilities on the warrior then showing lots of skewed and worthless graphs. That was definitely not a real world example of what real tanks do, yet so many were happy to shout out the numbers as proof that a class needed to be nerfed.

    If a warrior can out parse a dps class when given the same support, then a guild would be stupid to not give the adps slots to a warrior (assuming tanking duties in a tank group were covered by other warriors/knights). You don't just slot people in places based on class description. You do based on actual output. The same goes for giving the most skilled people those adps slots and the slackers the bad groups.

    You're just trying to deflect to save what you covet. I'm not looking for nerfs or anything, but would be nice to see some honesty rather than twisting and squirming with bs arguments.
    Belexes, fransisco, Igniz and 4 others like this.
  19. just_some_bard Lorekeeper

    This, ladies and gentleman, is the ultimate problem. These RoI guys are bored. They have all maxed out within a month of the expansion release. You may get all these sick super exp groups, the rest of us don't though. If you're bored, find something else to do. Don't cripple the game for the rest of us.
  20. segap Augur

    I'm not in any of those groups, but I can honestly say I find the content too easy. That's without even using a real tank in groups. The game is already crippled for those that actually want a challenge.

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