Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Fintank, Feb 11, 2017.
Your peers are people who have never posted on the forum.
This is a better parse.
It's current content. Zak is a BEAST !!! I know I could not put out that sort of performance.
The parse is still flawed tho. In that you are using a "BEST" one.
This event is a large multiple add event. And it really means that Warriors *could* parse well.
Take for example first phase anashti (this warrior wasn't main tank nor in DPS group)
/1 Anashti Sul, Lady of Life in 61s, 432940k @7097377 --- #16 Warrior 10878k@(181295 in 60s) [2.51%]
Now add in the 8 adds.
/1 Combined: A guardian of Sul in 61s, 486271k @7971663 --- #6 Warrior 19435k@(323914 in 60s) [4%]
Wow. He's almost doubled his DPS over 60secs. He's now 6th on the parse.
How did he do that? Hitting AE ramp while under disc has almost doubled his DPS over the 60secs.
So 100% DPS over 60secs = 33% DPS over 3mins (refresh of AE ramp). It's entirely possibly that 100k of Zak's DPS is due to AE ramp alone.
I will agree RAID TANKS are really in a great spot DPS wise with 2nder. We are basically double the DPS of the group version, even tho it's only a 30% difference in weapon ratio. Add in that raid version of weapons have much high Damage figures and obviously that benefits ripo and tanking multiples.
To me - defensive stance should just be done away with - tank's don't need any more mitigation and defensive just ampifies effects such as NTTB.
I honestly don't think the leech change is going to effect people like Drogba at all. I can only seeing it hitting the people who are mass swarming light blues in valley, ch or fmech. And imo - SK is prolly the most PLAYED tank class, they are a great class and are really fun in the group game - why ruin that mass audience?
I do agree with Drogba , that mobs in current content are too weak. Maybe that is an AA problem (physical enhancement - looking at you) that hasn't been balanced.
I just don't want folks to say - wow warriors is doing 350k DPS here and there and getting it changed when it's taken out of context. (i.e multi mobs - like the examples here)
If you frown upon his "old parse", I'll frown on your "old parse". Either full cherry-picking, or none at all. You asked for a "current" parse and he delivered.
The main purpose of that parse , which was done 2nite, was just to show the difference that 1 button makes. Sul has 8 adds......and AE ramp (and this is just a 2 hit thing) has double the warriors DPS on that event. It refreshes every 3mins. And Queen event generally has more than 8 adds in play at once.
He did deliver on the current parse - but it still biased because of the multiples which is what i was highlighting , how easy it is to distort.
I don't want to take away from that parse tbh, that is really impressive. But i think on a parse like Prince or Incarnante Droga (drogba - i'm sure this is the parse he came up with warriors overpowered tbh - it's the only event that fits) then the numbers would be different.
Can we stop saying "tank" when you mean "Warrior exploiting a disc combo devs don't know about yet"?
SK dps (which is still well above paladins on anything not undead right now, which is fine) and paladin dps that isn't on trivial content and multimob riposte inflation (paladins could do 300k dps eight years ago in ruins of illslan when swarming 100+ mobs, it is NOT any real indication of class vs class dps balance).
Other than 90 seconds every 20 minutes, let's not pretend knight dps is anything but horrid. Especially paladins (except against undead). The problem is dps classes (other than zerkers) have stagnated.
Non-zerker dps need a burn boost (which hasn't happened because they don't want us trivializing raids with dps).
Zerker burn dps MAY need a small nerf but not much if at all.
Zerker SUSTAINED dps needs nerfed (this is where zerkers really blow out other dps).
Warriors AE dps stuff is going to be nerfed, we all know it.
Tank superiority in mitigation/avoidance (tanking) is a whole other ball of wax and the riposte damage thing is pretty much immaterial in terms of the dps argument. It is only a side effect of the tanking issue.
Been a lot of tank threads lately without much paladin voice in it, probably cause most of us have just given up on not being awful at tanking in group of good players or raid (because we can't aggro, almost entirely because of the aggro issue).
Anyone with a brain knows warriors are getting nerfed for the same reason zerker AE ramp (and other class similar things) was nerfed just a few months ago.
The tanking multiple mob things versus non-tanks being destroyed is an interesting question because this EXACT thing was predicted to them with the introduction of tank stances to all tanks instead of nerfing warriors.
Reread through those. Outside of warrior homers whining about not being the only OP tank, Xanathol lying about how it was all peachy keen, were a lot of people saying "this is going to be a problem, because either content will be so easy a druid booboo pet can tank it, or only tanks will be able to tank it". Maybe the devs are fine with it, saying tanks should tank head and shoulders above other classes isn't exactly an insane ideology (especially if mercs are boosted like they finally are)
Also it was pointed out that SHORT TERM dps burn dps for knights (60-90 second range every 20 minutes) was going to explode because we had tools that are insane dps discs/abilities, but were working on such low baseline dps that it was fine, but now its working on a much higher baseline dps with 2h stance. And while in a vacuum that may be ok, it does go against their issue about trying to neuter an entire raids' burst dps.
Believe me, as a paladin moloing in someplace like lcea or FM or droga, its "every 20 minutes burn down 6-8 mobs in seconds then spend the next 19 minutes killing 1 mob every minute at best". The difference between the "burn" and "sustained" dps is staggering for a knight.
I wish, i really REALLY wish you had pointed that out when a certain warrior started his crusade for mage pets to be nerfed into neigh-uselessness with HIGHLY debatable parses ...
Edit: On everyhing else, we're on pretty much the same page, though.
This post is the best post in a long while with regards to xanathol. I bet he has a ton of friends irl. Not really
I've been playing a Warrior for 2 months and am pulling DPS class numbers. For comparison, Wizard friend who raids with me both on Test and FV struggles to keep up (and sometimes even loses). He's been a Wizard main for 10 years and has extensive knowledge of the class.
We raid with an extremely casual, low DPS force on Test and raid with 30-35, meaning I have to squeeze numbers out wherever I can. We run with 1 really solid melee ADPS group. As a result, I'm swapping main rogues who push hard to benefit the raid and are only there to DPS into one of the less skilled melee ADPS groups. Why? Because I can push better numbers on the Warrior with less effort and no downsides. And let's not forget - if things start getting all sideways, I can still tank for 30 seconds w/ 0 heal support while everyone else recovers.
Still don't know w-t-f to do on a Warrior btw. I push like 5 buttons and a mash key and numbers just magically skyrocket into the 300k+ sustained range. It's neat. But not really, because as a raid leader I have to tell someone who can only do DPS "Sorry dude, but the tanks are more valuable when granted melee ADPS than your class whose only role is DPS." That's got to be a hard pill to swallow.
Hits me right here, in the feels -----> <3
I could not hope to do this on my best day on my Enchanter, the only class I'd like to think I carry an expert level of knowledge/skill in. I parse comfortably close to very skilled Rangers and Beastlords, and tanks can smoke all 3 when given proper support. But then again, with tank DPS being comparable to 1st tier DPS, that's not a surprise.
Balance! Where art thou? ---> nerf mage pets.
btw, wait till y'all see Shaman raid DPS as it is on Test right now. There will be riots.
inb4 yourdpsisbad. maybe your tanks need to lrn2dps.
Something that seems to keep coming up is a) tanks do too much dps and b) tanks mitigation is too high.
As for b, I think tank mitigation should be high and I think changing it will come back to bite everyone down the road. When you see the op swarming issues, you don't see it with shield and board stance.
As for a, my personal opinion is that this only becomes extreme when overgeared for the content and are able to reliably tank with a 2 hander at all times. This is where you start seeing the swarming and high dps while tanking at same time. My opinion is that tanks should only have the ability to do high dps when not tanking and that there are one of two ways to do this;
- leave in 2 hand stance but make the trade off worse as in 100 percent reduction in parry, block AND riposte, or;
- get rid of 2 hand stance but give tanks a 60 sec dps burn that acts similar to the current 2 hand stance that has a refresh time of 10 mins (or whatever ends up being reasonable).
Can you people just stop. The rest of us are getting fed up with paying for the you high Enders do.
Thanks for implying Primal Brood is high end <3
You're my new favorite person.
This is a terrible attitude toward the situation. It's very much the same approach that xanathol takes with everything. You have to learn to maximize or you will always be upset when others are doing things that you can't do.
This entire trend of nerfing classes and fixing age-old bugs is just silly. Daybreak can't even keep the login server and game servers running correctly. Why they waste resources on fixing crap that doesn't need it is beyond me. All the nerfs do is make players unhappy and give people more reason to quit and move on. Maybe that is their endgame.
Some how ok ranger rog monk and zek tank 3 Yellow in EOK but my SK put 2h in and solo merc 2am do some AA that not right why that ????
Why should tanks not be able to contribute on damage when not tanking? You trolls realize that tanks aren't putting out crap for DPS when we are in our tanking stances right?
The Tanking and DPS values with tanks are not something that simultaneously occur... its one or the other. Yes, single group mobs can be tanked with 2 handers, but its definitely not the norm... and is very much NOT the case on raids.
Up until some of these changes, tanks essentially had one purpose... get hit and contribute nothing to a group other than soak up damage. Now, per say, if we have 2 or more tanks in a group they can actually accomplish something as they can do some decent DPS when they aren't tanking.
Does it maybe need a little fine tuning? Likely. Does it need this OMG THE SKY IS FALLING smack with the nerf bat? No.
My box warrior puts out 40k on auto attack with sword and board. 80k dual wield. That's not insignificant dps
Actually, compared to dps classes, that probably is very insignificant with current gear.
That's purely auto attack. No abilities. If I start adding any of his aa or whatnot it jumps up ini the 100k plus. Heck if you just make sure you have battle leap on after a zone or Rez it jumps way up. Tanks are not hurting and if you are using sword and board in EoK group content your missing a ton of dps. My warrior can tank 5-6 easy on dual wield. That's with pdh only usually.
Where are you getting the sky is falling nonsense? I can't imagine anyone here is asking for more than a small cut so that tanks in dps groups don't out dps actual dps classes.
As all companies do, DBG is just addressing the "concerns" of the loudest, complainingest minority.
Just look at these last two "MUST NERF TANK" threads and DBG has no choice but to assume these fools represent either the common interest of the game, or more than a few whiny children.
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