Tank DPS Nerf Required

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Fintank, Feb 11, 2017.

  1. Maedhros Augur

    I think youre trying to demonstrate that your dps was low, but despite being in a tank group with presumably no adps, and using an old 2hander, you still managed to get 13th. Were there only 12 dps classes on the raid?
    Did a shammy cast Lion on your group from a different group? Where is the shammy epic if there was a shammy in your group?
    Imagine if you had adps and a new weapon huh?
  2. Sheex Augur

    Xikteny, Xeladom and Triconix like this.
  3. Murphy Elder


    Yep. Some will know what this means :eek:
  4. p2aa Augur

    There was no shaman in the group, so it was cast from a different group. I don't say that this parse is low. It's some good DPS, but it's not "overpowered". And DPS classes can do better.
    Note that this parse is not in favor of DPS classes too, because they were moving too to kill adds upstairs, while I stayed on named whole time. If i take a combine for all droga raid, I end 17th of 40.
  5. Natal Augur

    Caster dps is not on Incarnate the whole time. Also, melee dps breaks off periodically to deal with adds. Non tanks also have to flee the AE effects periodically, so depending on circumstances may not be doing damage all of the time, especially if they are soft.

    And still, he was only 13th.
  6. Igniz Augur

    So ... another "picked" parse with a lot of ifs, whens and buts ...
    "If the DPS could have stayed on the mob", "If I had combined..."

    Just saying ...
  7. Ratbo Peep Augur

    First of all I totally agree that tanks needed a DPS boost so they could play and contribute when they were not "up" in a tank rotation. In fact I'm one of the ones that lobbied for it over the years.
    That said... it went a little too far. IMHO
    In doing the 4 EOK group missions over and over to farm augs, achievements, and some gear for a few of our people, I'm seeing our Warrior much higher on parses than I would have ever imagined. And last night we had an SK instead for MT and he did just as well if not *better*. And I'm seeing a Pally show up once in a while on raid parses when we hit a target and the big DPS classes have their "main burns" still on cool-down from the last target.
    Granted we don't have a great DPS outfit going in CTA - but still.
    Ya - It's super that tanks can contribute some DPS when they are not the MT - but the Dev's really might wanna crunch the numbers and see for themselves.
    (this as opposed to devoting man-hours to things like nerfing (and breaking) Chanters and nerfing SK's)
  8. Xorsazis Augur

    Everyone is making the assumption that DPS is going to stay where they are currently. Nobody knows what the devs are planning, but since we are making assumptions, look at it in another view.

    Basing the current "trend" of class adjustments, who is to say that Zerker DPS isn't where they want all DPS classes to be, but haven't gotten there yet (or maybe further)?

    Let's look at what got boosted. Tanks, DoT's, and Zerkers.
    • Tanks were fairly easy. We don't have a lot of spammers and the ones we do have do very little. The base adjustment to all our damage was a quick fix for the poor innate DPS (Innate Fellstrike). Stances made it more notable based on weapon choice.
    • Most classes using DoT's were also fairly easy to adjust. They have a few lines, and it was a pretty simple to throw some numbers in there and see how it stacked and moved on.
    • Zerkers gained a huge boost with Dicho. With the EoK power curve added in it made it that much better. I've seen them do 2-3x more damage than the number 2 spot of the parse.
    So what's left? Bards, Pure Melee, and Pure Casters (minus chanters).
    • Bards are a complex class. They can do almost anything. I can't imagine how hard it is to tune them into something without breaking or creating an exploit somewhere else. Their time is probably on the way, though.
    • The pure melee classes left have a pretty complex disc system. Most of their DPS seems to be generated from multiple Discs/Spammers over a longer time.
    • Nuking classes don't seem very complex, but the stacking system of buffs/abilities can make for a large window range of what a nuke can land for. I'm not sure how they would approach this. Necros utilize so many DoT's it isn't really a wonder why they haven't touched them yet (and maybe they have, and just don't have it where they like it yet). Plus there's the Epic thing to deal with.
    It just seems to me like they are adjusting where it's easiest first, then moving into the more complex arenas. I'm not saying any of this is factual, just saying it seem more likely at this point with the recent changes.
    Nobody really knows what they have planned.
  9. Narogg Augur

    I love you guys!

    So if I want to be uber all i need is to buy
    Warlord's Weapon Mastery aa and battle Leap AA.

    I had no idea.. Thank you for sharing.
  10. Tucoh Augur

  11. Orbital101 Augur

    Offensive discipline destroy Intensity of the Resolute DPS wise but leave very little gap for error if any if things goes wrong. Even a rampage could kill you and Its the price to pay if willing to get in the parse. I think its fair...
  12. Bamkan Augur

    You should recheck your info on this. It's 4 ROUNDS of hits. i.e each round can Flurry/double/triple - so 6-7 hits x4 per mob.
    Honestly the best way to think of it is in terms of weapon delay and time. As I said a 35 delay weapon with haste is a combat round every 1.7secs. So each Rampage is worth 1.7 *4 round = 6.8secs of damage per target. So 10 targets is basically equiv to you doing 68secs worth of damage (mighty/brutal both only last 30secs).

    So your solution is to halve Sword and Board DPS?

    If they keep the same/similar ratio of 2 hnd weapons and lowered the damage/delay, (weapon delay to around the 25 mark), then it would make tank swarm less effective (as the Damage would be 1/3 lower from ripo), it would make AE ramp less effective against multi targets. And then only a minor change to 2HND proficiency would be required, maybe 20% less.
    But of course no dev is going to want to rework ratio's.

    To me, as long a warrior is doing less than a melee DPS in a DPS group, then there is an oportunity cost of doing so.

    As you say in your fellowship chat that you don't trust your other tanks to tank, do you trust them to DPS currently like Zak does?
    Xanathol likes this.
  13. Behelit Augur

    For starters, a Warrior can't hit 7 times in a round, no one can. You can flurry for up to 5 hits, and then you have the extra attack chance with 2h for 6 hits max per round.

    Secondly who doesn't have at least some version of the Taelosian Guard overhaste? Even if we're assuming no bard in grp (which is silly for tuning purposes), any respectable raider has at least 16% most with 17%. Bringing your swing down to 1.6sec with a 35 delay wep, although why you're using a 35 delay weapon is beyond me though as every Warrior I've seen using a 2h in EoK uses Scar at a 33 delay.

    Thirdly saying that Rampage is X-seconds worth of damage is incredibly misleading, it can add X-seconds of autoattack damage but that's not the entirety of a class' damage. You wouldn't say on a 68sec parse that Rampage on 10 targets doubled a Warrior's damage, unless that Warrior was bad and only autoattacks.

    All the talk of Rampage being used to inflate parses is frankly stupid. Zerkers have the exact same Rampage, on the exact same recast, with better disc/aa/passives to make use of that Rampage, and it's no where near the dps for us that ppl are claiming it is for Warriors.
    fransisco likes this.
  14. Bamkan Augur

    Overhaste is a little negible in the scheme of things, but as you say it brings it down from 1.7secs per round to 1.6

    Scar is definitely a great weapon.
    But you'd do more damage if you bandolier it out for the Mastermind (438 dam) vs Scar (413) when you use AE ramp, ~ 6% more per target.

    You work out how to quad Dicho yet?
  15. Behelit Augur

    So math and numbers aren't important now? I didnt realize we just round up or down now whenever it suits the point we're trying to make regardless if they are actually accurate. Here's some light reading for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_figures

    lol @ bandoliering for Rampage, disproved that one several times over for the Zerkers not gonna bother for a Warrior but keep right on wasting your time and damage

    And no Dicho can't quad, it hits 6 times and then with twincast it hits 12 times. By all means show me a case of it hitting 24 times off a single click or doing more damage than I said it was capable of doing and I'll be all to happy to report how you did it to the devs so its fixed.
    fransisco likes this.
  16. Bamkan Augur

    I didn't say numbers weren't important. But I think a 0.1 sec reduction is relatively negible in the scheme of things, esp compared to the 1.8 reduction from haste. Even at 1.6, it's still 6.4secs equiv of damage per target.

    So let me get this right. You don't think a 438 damage weapon will do more than a 413 weapon under AE ramp? So by that logic a 200 damage weapon is going to do the same as a 413 weapon under AE ramp........
    Cuckoo land.
  17. Behelit Augur

    Of course you think its negligible because it goes against your exaggeration of Rampage. And again you continue to misrepresent it, its not 6.4sec of damage, its 6.4sec of AUTOATTACK damage. I'm sure Warrior's aren't 100% autoattack dps.

    Speaking of autoattack, while you bandolier for Rampage your autoattack takes a hit that washes out whatever benefit you think you're getting from a bigger dmg spike on your graph.
    fransisco likes this.
  18. segap Augur

    My experimenting with bandolier for special attacks a while back showed that client server lag negated any benefit. Typically I was seeing about a .4 second window when the server thought I had no weapon equipped. That's with a ping that's typically 30-45ms. Bandolier works great for changing situations, but not for quick special attack switches.
  19. Brohg Augur

    Utterly specious observation. You see warriors wielding Scar because that's the weapon that drops, same as that's the weapon you see "every Berserker" wielding. If lower delay were better and all weapons equally available, then you'd see all Targalons.

    Now's when you please school us all on the phenomenal impact of the Bash button and Shield Break every 2 ticks? No no, clearly you mean Knee Strike for one extra kick once per disc.

    "Only autoattack" for warriors isn't some weird exaggeration like for real dps classes.
  20. Vdidar Augur

    Gets popcorn ready <gif>

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