Tank DPS Nerf Required

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Fintank, Feb 11, 2017.

  1. Grissa New Member

    All three tanks classes do well in the DPS...that is a fact.

    We did a fun Raid on Emo with only 18 players, just took a while...parse is just the adds at the start
    /GU Combined: A determined invader in 225s, 347290k @1543511sdps -- #1 Grissa 150016k@666736sdps (701008dps in 214s) [43.2%]

    ^is obviously padded due to the massive ripostes...

    Should Tanks get a DPS nerf? No, I don't believe so

    Should DPS classes get a DPS boost? Yes, I believe so.

    So here it is: WEAPON STANCES to all!

    I would imagine melee DPSers enjoying the 2hand and duel wield stances and from time to time the Defensive stances when equipping a shield for those situational situations =P

    Can do similar stances with the casters. When in 2hand stance, boost to Direct Damage nukes, and do I dare say? Chance to triple cast! If the caster so chooses can swap to his/her shield for more defense instead with a HP boost? /shrug

    Yes, that would make is easier and anybody can do anything type of deal. But, if the content was more difficult even with everyone having access to Weapons Stances (defensive), you would want a real tank(mitigation) that is equipped with the tools and skills to handle the content...

    just my 2 cents
  2. Murphy Elder

    If you understood what was being said in the general sense instead of the specific sense or case, then you would see that not much really has to be tuned or tweaked. It is actually the opposite and much more "surgical" than for example the blunt force trauma of the latest class nerf (SK).

    Tank dps is fine. Not everyone has access to those end game 2 handers. SO at that point are you gonna impact 100% of the tanks in question based on 1% of the group with the EOK or TBM 2 handers that put out some dps? Again, the class nerf versus the item change or content change is the least appropriate way to address the situation.

    But..ahem, people like having verbal chest beating bouts with each other on boards like this AND class nerfage seems to employ devs or justify their employment or more critically, justifies them not doing something else when they are supposedly "being responsive to the community regarding class balance" which is code for responding to the misguided whiners on here.
  3. Siddar Augur

    I agree nerf adps. Is only way to really fix this problem without taking a meat clever to most classes.

    Bard of course will need to compensated for the loss of adps, though not enchanters.
  4. Bamkan Augur

    Firstly, AE ramping 4 targets = 15% of the DPS. But lets knock 10% off to bring it back to 180k DPS over the 6mins, just to be slightly pedantic. I think ~180k DPS fairly accurate represents Warriors against single targets in a burn group.

    Secondly, it appears that 198k got you 1st on the parse. Congratulations :) Maybe other DPS were taking their time so not to get double spawns on adds or something.

    Lastly, most folks seem to think that monks are in dire need of more DPS, so lets use them as a base. Someone posted a monk parse earlier in the thread, 300k DPS over 180secs. So to bring that up to your 180-200k DPS over 6mins, they would only have to do 60-100k DPS over the final 180secs.
    So to me , the 198k DPS should be pretty easily beatable by most DPS classes.

    So to me, Warriors are doing the same kind of DPS as the (apparent) worst DPS class.
    Xanathol likes this.
  5. Kunon Augur

    I think you (and some others) are also missing the general sense in these threads as well. Tanks (priests now too) aren't just outparsing many DPS classes on raids, it also carries over to the group game as well. It is actually even more pronounced there where toons either have or do not have the exact same support. There tanks benefit even more from their DPS stemming more from innate AAs (placed their over the years to help tanks DPS when tanking before stances) and stances as opposed to the heavy reliance on activated abilities with timers/refreshes of actual DPS classes. Unless they are tanking ridiculously large amounts of mobs even group geared tanks are (or should) be using 2handers.

    It is true that not everyone has access to raid gear/weapons, but you're point about access to raid quality 2handers is also moot. In the parses shown it is raid gear vs raid gear so it is apples to apples. Non raiding tanks have access to group gear 2handers and they should then be compared to group geared (and armed) DPSers. When it is group DPSers vs group tanks the tanks come out ahead again.

    The only way to really even things out from a melee perspective would be if melee DPSers got a form of stances that gave them the same innate boosts that tanks get while in "DPS mode" which is now their defacto stance. As for casters, Necros have the DoT revamp coming so that could/should be addressed there but that still leaves Wizards and Mages needing something. That would be the preferred option, but history has shown that they are more likely to lower a couple classes over boosting several.
    fransisco and Grissa like this.
  6. Valik New Member

    I dont understand eveyone saying to nerf ADPS.... it would still leave the same issue thatvthere presently is...
    fransisco and Vdidar like this.
  7. Maedhros Augur

    I tried to search for an intelligent post by P2AA but my computer caught on fire and screamed lol at me as it burned. Posting from my cell phone.
    Vrinda, IblisTheMage and fransisco like this.
  8. Millianna Augur

    Only thing surprising is why this thread is still open.
  9. Maedhros Augur

    ADPS is not the problem. Its how well warriors and to a lesser degree knights perform when given the benefits of the ADPS.
    If the problem was that ADPS was too strong, not that tank dps was too high, then all the monks and rogues would be easily out-dpsing the tanks.

    Its pretty simple.
    Vrinda, IblisTheMage, Belexes and 2 others like this.
  10. Triconix Augur

    This thread is hilarious.
    Belexes and Vdidar like this.
  11. Vdidar Augur

    No no its not. It is also hilarious to anyone who is serious about eq that your still defending your stance. If you were a paladin maybe but as an sk no
  12. Millianna Augur

    My stance is 100% correct based on the assumed population of "all tanks." The average group geared tank isn't going to be pulling those numbers. They probably don't have the supporting cast to do so. There is more than enough of them to flatten out your data. Now go ahead and nerf tank DPS via the stance if you like. WARs will still be on top of the parse because the DPS from the stance is only small part of the problem.
  13. Vdidar Augur

    the average group geared tank can still do massive dps and tank way more than 3 mobs at once
    Belexes and fransisco like this.
  14. Zamiam Augur

    Please Dev's close this thread or move it to tanks forum you are my only hope..
  15. Drogba Augur

    Current sustained dps food chain = BER/SHM > WAR > rest???(Though how are druids placing? lol) If there's no adds, then that hierarchy would change.

    How nice it must be to be a monk right now.

    You would think the purpose of choosing a dps class over a tank class would be to be better DPS than a tank class while being less of a tank, but nah, warriors should be both because who cares about anybody else.

    Additionally, let's balance everything around what Milliana does/doesn't use to maximize their dps, that makes sense.
    Vrinda, IblisTheMage, Vdidar and 3 others like this.
  16. Bamkan Augur

    If Ber are No #1, then surely one would be on OP's parse above.

    I did some digging myself - RoTE Berserker died on OP's parse cause no tank picked up a Blizzard. How's that for irony. Someone who can do 3x what a War can do dying because a tank wants to DPS.


    Shaman can parse extremely well......

    On Queen event. 1 spell can cause a lot of damage for them....so a multi add event like that really stacks up for them, i wouldn't be surprised if they were also dotting the Captains :)

    I'd love to see a Gorenaire/ Prince/ Incarnate Droga parse from RoI where a Shaman is just behind the Berserkers Drogba.
    3 events is pretty generous for you to choose from :)

    I'm assuming with your post , that you have the evidence and will provide one.
    Xeladom likes this.
  17. Natal Augur

    So, basically, if what you are saying is correct, then tanks will be topping the dps lists in parses in most raids across all guilds, and in group parses? When we are talking about "enough data", that is what we are talking about, not extreme outlier examples which usually involve very special circumstances.

    If that is not happening then you are full of hot air.

    The devs know exactly how much dps each class is doing. The amount of data available to them is massively more than what is available to you and they know the equations that go into generating damage output. You don't. If a class is doing too much dps in one expansion for some reason, when the next one comes around they get less of an upgrade than some class that is not doing enough.

    Maybe Zaknaffein was topping the parse because he is very good, but the other players in his guild are just average? If you make the argument that other warriors don't top the lists because they are average players, why can't the exact same argument be made about the people playing with this guy? There is no reason to think that the rest of them are special just because he apparently is. You can't flip your logic just to suit your argument. You can't have it both ways.

    Speaking personally, as someone who has raided as a warrior for close on two decades now, the last time I saw warriors consistently making the top 10 in parses was in OoW IIRC. It has never happened since then.
    Xeladom and Bamkan like this.
  18. Natal Augur

    Yeah right. Let us use extreme outliers in data sets to argue for nerfs instead. That is WAYYYY more logical. :rolleyes:
    Gyurika Godofwar and Bamkan like this.
  19. Bamkan Augur

    We used to have a AWESOME monk in our guild.

    I'd take him back if you guys are disposing of your monks....

    oh ..right........
  20. Natal Augur

    Most likely the warrior is tanking mobs, so he is getting the benefit of ripostes that dps classes of course would not get. That is not HIS damage though, it is actually autodamage the mob takes by virtue of beating on a character. This is the problem with a lot of these parses. They pick up everything and that includes data that should not be used. Healing parses for example will often show the warrior as doing significant healing, even though they never cast a single heal while tanking and in fact don't even have a heal.

    That video was so blurry that he may have been doing 300 dps instead of 300k dps for all we know. It is NOT evidence. We don't know how the rest of the groups were set up, what they were doing during the fight or how competent they were. We can't even be sure that he was actually doing that dps.

    Real data would involve parses from a wide range of fights with a wide range of setups and from a wide range of guilds, so that variables and spikes in data can be normalized.

    The best comparison would be to take a group out to fight regular mobs and parse them then. If the OP is correct, then warriors would outdamage every class always. If that doesn't happen then he is a troll. Pretty simple IMO.

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