Spell Research on TLP servers

https://dgcissuetracker.com/browse/EQ-1375

TLP servers are a bit of a patchwork of classic and current EQ. Content, graphics, and game mechanics are a blend of both systems, and work for the most part. Here and there, though, there is room for improvement.

Classic spell research is gone for good - and that's okay. EQ's current spell research is in use in one form or another on all servers. On TLPs, however, there's a problem in PoP.

We have a situation where research materials drop for level 61+ lvl spells, but cannot be crafted. This, in turn, creates a situation where players will make efforts to stockpile the research materials, only to determine that it's worthless. Worse still, there seems to be no other use for Spell Research in PoP due to PoK vendors.

The player community at large is aware of these issues, but this still remains a design problem.

Ngreth, please discuss with lead designers taking one of the following actions:

1) Disable all drops for level 61+ spells until recipes can be used.

2) Enable PoP recipes to be researched in-era.

3) A combination of 1 and 2 such that some spells, perhaps only level 61-62 or 61-64 may be researched, with materials removed for non-researchable spells.

4) Add in-era recipes which use an additional Ethereal or Spectral Parchment to existing recipes, allowing research of specific spells in place of hand-in questing.

Thank you for your time,

Krezzy
Monk of Agnarr

I like the idea of being able to research 61-62 spells in era. I don't think this is game-breaking and it gives classes which really suffer without their spells (such as Enc) the ability to be useful while they're trying to collect their parchments. Research has an incredibly expensive plat sink past 115, and this change wouldn't make research much more attractive as ethereal parchments will become quite commonplace.

The result would be that researched or not, 61-62 spells would still be rare and expensive on launch, but research would provide a means to dodge brutal RNG and allow guilds to more effectively help their members.

63-64 spells being researchable would only make sense if it required spectral parchments so that planar spell progression couldn't be bypassed. 61-62 spells requiring ethereal parchments would not be a meaningful change for neither researchers nor the average player. If that were the only viable route, I'd rather see 61+ hides restricted to PoP era droptables.

ITT: heavily invested agnarrian caught with worthless tulips attempts to salvage his failed coup on th market!

But i agree, get rid of the drops if theyre meaningless and deceiving.

We already tried to make them see the light that they had totally borked the research skill when they made it so you can't research spells until 3 expansions later(not really fixed even in PoR btw). They just don't care enough to bother with it. It really is sad. Research is only useful in classic/kunark. After that, it is a waste of time. So much for the insane amount of plat we dumped into maxing the skill.

It's not that they just don't care. They intentionally, deliberately nerfed Research into the ground. My guess: Dev staff is stretched way too thin, and one less tradeskill means their dev staff is a little less stretched. It was the thorniest of TLP tradeskills, and was also largely useless on live already, and now they don't have to worry about it at all.

If this tradeskill is to be worthless from PoP on, it'd be a shame - but still preferable to the schizoid implementation we have now. As it stands, players may obtain mob-dropped ingredients to create spells, but may not combine those ingredients.

The existence of game drops implies some sort of utility. Junk such as Rowdy Rubble represents poor game design. It only clutters things up. Content which causes players to waste time and resources to no end is even worse. It will generate ill will and create the impression of the game which is no longer maintained.

The only reason to do it would be to make mechanoinstructions in DoDH. But this isn't going to happen on Agnarr so, yes it is a wasted skill on that server. I hope you got your money out of it early.

I heard those spell researches got rich anyways. Only people that got hurt would be those that leveled up right before pop.

I'm sure there are players who netted a good amount of plat for this prior to PoP, but that's beside the point.

EQ has about two decades of content supported by a number of wikis and other sites in various states. TLPs specifically are designed and marketed toward players who are returning to EQ for nostalgic reasons, and often do not know the current state of the game - or even the special situation on progression servers. Even with online resources, it can be very difficult for returning players to know what does and does not work on a TLP.

Leaving "gotchas" in the game that cause players to pointlessly waste effort is bad for the community, and for the game. Content deemed inappropriate for the era needs to be removed, especially when it has no purpose save to annoy the player community without adding fun.

I just noticed that my skill shows at 197/200. Ist 200 really the max on TLP (Phinigel)? Or is it only 200 because I'm hybrid? Or ist that just a UI error?

This is not the only issue, it would take someone hundreds if not thousands of hours to come up with the old classic version of this game. It is running rather smoothly at the moment, but to go through the database and disable every single item that drops, and then flow through each quest to item, then crafting to items will take a very long time. They have already announced they have laid off more workers at DBG, so who are they going to pull over to do all this?

It's because you are a hybrid. I was able to get to 243 during Kunark as an int caster. It's worth mentionin to anyone on Coirnav who sees this post, that since research dies in PoP, there's no point in going that high. The level 59 recipes top out at something like 214. I was just burning plat making solutions for the hell of it.

Research is very useful in Velious and Luclin. PoP is the research killer. (I'm not certain if the sooties for level 60 spells drop in Luclin on TLP's as I quit playing before Luclin came out, but being able to research the sub level 60 spells is extremely useful.)

I think you DRASTICALLY underestimate the work required. Not only would they have to do everything you mentioned, they would have to walk back 19 years of patches, which in many cases took 10+ times the current dev staff to develop.

Nobody here is advocating rolling back research to its original form. New research is here to stay.

At issue are five drops, and the spell recipes derived from them.

Spell Research Drops
Used Parchment (lvl 61)
Grubby Fine Parchment (lvl 62)
Shabby Vellum Parchment (lvl 63)
Grimy Fine Vellum Parchment (lvl 64)
Smudged Runic Parchment (lvl 65)

These items may all be combined into their "cleaned" research version using Spell Research skill and some costly materials, but then the skill dead-ends until GoD. When a player attempts to research a level 61+ spell using one of these, (s)he will receive a "requirements not met" error.

Every new TLP server attracts players who have not played EQ for years, if ever. The online resources for this tradeskill are inconsistent. There are good resources for players to be found, but it's a gamble, especially for this particular skill. Because of this, every new TLP has players banging their shins on the same issue -- they acquire research material expecting it to work as it did in every prior expansion, then hit the wall.

Ideally, this skill would have some use in PoP (it does not; all researched spells are sold in PoK). Regardless of this, any spell drops (listed above) not allowed in EQ recipes should be removed from drop lists.

The required change is small and well-defined - not the major production you think it is. Simply disallow any items listed above that are not to be used until their recipes go live.

In case there is some use to devs, here is a list of all affected spell recipes:
Spell: Aeldorb's Animation
Spell: Agility of the Wrulan
Spell: Agnarr's Thunder
Spell: Ancestral Guard
Spell: Angstlich's Echo of Terror
Spell: Arag's Celerity
Spell: Arcane Rune
Spell: Armor of the Zealot
Spell: Aura of Darkness
Spell: Aura of Hate
Spell: Aura of Pain
Spell: Aura of the Crusader
Spell: Beckon
Spell: Belt of Magi`Kot
Spell: Black Steel
Spell: Blade of the Kedge
Spell: Blade of Walnan
Spell: Blessing of Replenishment
Spell: Blessing of Replenishment
Spell: Blessing of Reverence
Spell: Blessing of the Nine
Spell: Bliss
Spell: Blood of Hate
Spell: Blood of Saryrn
Spell: Blood of Thule
Spell: Boggle
Spell: Brackencoat
Spell: Breath of Ultor
Spell: Brell's Stalwart Shield
Spell: Brushfire
Spell: Burnout V
Spell: Call of the Arch Mage
Spell: Call of the Banshee
Spell: Call of the Rathe
Spell: Catastrophe
Spell: Catastrophe
Spell: Child of Bertoxxulous
Spell: Child of Ro
Spell: Chorus of Marr
Spell: Cloak of Luclin
Spell: Cloud of Grummus
Spell: Command of Druzzil
Spell: Command of Tunare
Spell: Condemnation
Spell: Crusader's Touch
Spell: Cry of Thunder
Spell: Dark Plague
Spell: Death's Silence
Spell: Deny Undead
Spell: Deny Undead
Spell: Destroy Summoned
Spell: Destroy Summoned
Spell: Destroy Undead
Spell: Destroy Undead
Spell: Draught of E`ci
Spell: Draught of Ro
Spell: Draught of Thunder
Spell: Dreams of Terris
Spell: Dreams of Thule
Spell: Druzzil's Disillusionment
Spell: E`ci's Frosty Breath
Spell: Earthen Roots
Spell: Earthen Roots
Spell: Elemental Barrier
Spell: Elemental Barrier
Spell: Elemental Silence
Spell: Embracing Darkness
Spell: Endurance of the Boar
Spell: Faith
Spell: Ferine Avatar
Spell: Ferocity
Spell: Festering Darkness
Spell: Fist of Ixiblat
Spell: Flameshield of Ro
Spell: Flight of Eagles
Spell: Focus of Soul
Spell: Focus of the Seventh
Spell: Force of Akilae
Spell: Force Shield
Spell: Force Shield
Spell: Frost Spear
Spell: Frozen Wind
Spell: Girdle of Magi`Kot
Spell: Greater Decession
Spell: Greater Fetter
Spell: Greater Fetter
Spell: Greater Immobilize
Spell: Greater Immobilize
Spell: Greater Immobilize
Spell: Guard of Druzzil
Spell: Hammer of Damnation
Spell: Hand of Ro
Spell: Hand of Virtue
Spell: Harmony of Sound
Spell: Healing of Sorsha
Spell: Howl of Tashan
Spell: Iceflame of E`ci
Spell: Illusion: Froglok
Spell: Immolation of Ro
Spell: Infusion of Spirit
Spell: Insanity
Spell: Jitterskin (DoN)
Spell: Karana's Rage
Spell: Karana's Renewal
Spell: Kazad's Mark
Spell: Legacy of Bracken
Spell: Legacy of Zek
Spell: Light of Nife
Spell: Lullaby of Morell
Spell: Lure of Ro
Spell: Maelstrom of Ro
Spell: Maelstrom of Thunder
Spell: Malicious Decay
Spell: Malos
Spell: Malosinia
Spell: Malosinia
Spell: Mark of Kings
Spell: Mark of the Righteous
Spell: Mask of the Forest
Spell: Melody of Mischief
Spell: Nature's Infusion
Spell: Nature's Might
Spell: Nature's Rebuke
Spell: Neurotoxin
Spell: Night's Dark Terror
Spell: Pacification
Spell: Pacification
Spell: Pact of Hate
Spell: Petrifying Earth
Spell: Petrifying Earth
Spell: Petrifying Earth
Spell: Pious Might
Spell: Planar Renewal
Spell: Protection of Seasons
Spell: Protection of the Nine
Spell: Protection of the Wild
Spell: Psalm of Veeshan
Spell: Quellious' Word of Serenity
Spell: Quiescence
Spell: Rathe's Son
Spell: Requiem of Time
Spell: Resistant Armor
Spell: Rizlona's Call of Flame
Spell: Ro's Illumination
Spell: Rune of Death
Spell: Rune of Zebuxoruk
Spell: Saryrn's Companion
Spell: Saryrn's Kiss
Spell: Saryrn's Scream of Pain
Spell: Savage Roots
Spell: Scorpion Venom
Spell: Seduction of Saryrn
Spell: Sermon of Penitence
Spell: Servant of Marr
Spell: Shackles of Tunare
Spell: Sha's Revenge
Spell: Shield of Bracken
Spell: Shield of Maelin
Spell: Shield of Maelin
Spell: Shield of Maelin
Spell: Shield of Maelin
Spell: Shield of the Arcane
Spell: Shield of the Arcane
Spell: Shield of the Arcane
Spell: Shield of the Arcane
Spell: Shock of Magic
Spell: Shroud of Chaos
Spell: Silent Song of Quellious
Spell: Sleep
Spell: Sound of Might
Spell: Spear of Decay
Spell: Spear of Decay
Spell: Spear of Torment
Spell: Speed of Vallon
Spell: Spirit of Arag
Spell: Spirit of Rellic
Spell: Spirit of Sorsha
Spell: Spirit of the Predator
Spell: Spiritual Dominion
Spell: Spiritual Vigor
Spell: Storm's Fury
Spell: Strangle
Spell: Strength of the Diaku
Spell: Strength of Tunare
Spell: Strike of Solusek
Spell: Summer's Flame
Spell: Summon Glowing Bauble
Spell: Summon Jewelry Bag
Spell: Summon Platinum Choker
Spell: Summon Runed Mantle
Spell: Summon Sapphire Bracelet
Spell: Summon Spiked Ring
Spell: Sun Storm
Spell: Sun Vortex
Spell: Supernal Cleansing
Spell: Supernal Elixir
Spell: Supernal Light
Spell: Swarming Death
Spell: Symbol of Kazad
Spell: Talisman of Celerity
Spell: Talisman of Return
Spell: Talisman of the Boar
Spell: Talisman of the Diaku
Spell: Talisman of the Tribunal
Spell: Talisman of Wrulan
Spell: Tarnation
Spell: Tears of Arlyxir
Spell: Tears of Marr
Spell: Tears of Ro
Spell: Tears of Saryrn
Spell: Telekin
Spell: Teleport
Spell: Terror of Thule
Spell: The Silent Command
Spell: Tiny Terror
Spell: Tnarg's Mending
Spell: Torment of Scio
Spell: Touch of Death
Spell: Touch of Innoruuk
Spell: Touch of Mujaki
Spell: Touch of Nife
Spell: Touch of Volatis
Spell: Tranquility
Spell: True Spirit
Spell: Tuyen's Chant of Fire
Spell: Tuyen's Chant of Ice
Spell: Tuyen's Chant of the Plague
Spell: Tuyen's Chant of Venom
Spell: Uproar
Spell: Vallon's Quickening
Spell: Vallon's Quickening
Spell: Velium Strike
Spell: Virtue
Spell: Voice of Quellious
Spell: Voice of Thule
Spell: Ward of Gallantry
Spell: Ward of Nife
Spell: Ward of Xegony
Spell: Warsong of Zek
Spell: Wave of Marr
Spell: Wind of Marr
Spell: Winter's Frost
Spell: Winter's Storm
Spell: Word of Morell
Spell: Word of Replenishment
Spell: Word of Terris
Spell: Xegony's Phantasmal Guard
Spell: Yaulp IV
Spell: Zevfeer's Bite

Bard songs should have "Song" in the name. Edit function doesn't appear to be working, so here is the updated bard song list:

Song: Angstlich's Echo of Terror
Song: Call of the Banshee
Song: Chorus of Marr
Song: Dreams of Terris
Song: Dreams of Thule
Song: Druzzil's Disillusionment
Song: Harmony of Sound
Song: Lullaby of Morell
Song: Melody of Mischief
Song: Psalm of Veeshan
Song: Requiem of Time
Song: Rizlona's Call of Flame
Song: Saryrn's Scream of Pain
Song: Silent Song of Quellious
Song: Tuyen's Chant of Fire
Song: Tuyen's Chant of Ice
Song: Tuyen's Chant of the Plague
Song: Tuyen's Chant of Venom
Song: Warsong of Zek
Song: Wind of Marr

My apologies to readers for the format. Normally I wrap lists in spoilers, which doesn't appear possible here.

It's just doesn't seem like a huge deal. At worst they try it once, get sad for a moment, and move on with their lives. They'll lose a couple hundred plat, in a time when you get get a couple thousand plat in a play session.

I am underwhelmed by the urgency of the problem.

Ever know a tradeskiller to get ingredients for just one attempt at a recipe when they know they'll be making several? This situation can easily run up a cost of thousands of plat. This situation is compounded by the bazaar, where players are either unwittingly or cynically selling the problem parchments.

And? The problem will sort itself out. The game has any number of issues that could cause you to lose a bunch of plat if you aren't paying attention. Ever hit shift instead of CTRL when buying stuff. The over abundance and lack of buyers will soon crash the price of the useless mats. People will figure it out pretty quickly, just like you did. Within a week or two it will be a non-issue even if the devs do nothing. Why should they waste dev time fixing a problem that will self correct.