Some suggestions for making Rogues more enjoyable in future TLPs.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by WokeCat, Jul 30, 2021.

  1. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    The irony is over 9000
    Triconix and Tweakfour17 like this.
  2. Machen New Member


    I agree in theory. Instead they have chosen to make player power greater and greater. MoTM is about the only thing that has gone the other direction, and even it hasn't kept up with tanking mitigation increases and innate melee aa's. So I'll oppose most things that increases player power further, even inadvertently.
  3. Machen New Member


    Imagine dismissing the difficulty of Everquest without ever having personally experienced the difficult parts.

    I'm sad that most players will never get to experience a challenge like Underfoot was in era or even on Fippy. By the time we got to it on Fippy, only a few hundred players had beaten it ever, despite tens of thousands trying. We spent weeks working on it, perfecting strategies, getting everything perfect for the perfect run. Unless you've experienced something like that, you don't know what you're talking about. Now anyone who shows up beats it, but it wasn't that way once.

    And yes, I'm aware it was way harder in era, and that's the whole point.
    Kobra likes this.
  4. Triconix Augur

    Don't reply to him. He's a troll. If anything goes against his narrative, it's either a fabricated lie or trolling in his mind. He's the all-knowing EQ historian. Never played anything past velious yet knows every minute detail about ever expansion and even raid
    Tweakfour17 and Machen like this.
  5. Machen New Member


    I know, and I should know better.
    Tweakfour17 likes this.
  6. Atomos Augur

    I don't recall ever saying I play EQ for difficulty.

    There is never a point in the past 22 years where there has been any difficulty in Everquest. If you can't beat content, that's on you and the people you play with. Sadly there are people who can't even auto attack properly so /shrug.

    Feel free to post the quote of me saying I've never played past Velious! We'll wait. Who's the troll again?

    I've never claimed to know everything about EQ. But I will absolutely repeat the things your friends and guildmates and even yourself say on this very forum. :)

    There's a great example in this forum right know that makes post-PoP expansions sound terrible. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/shorten-the-70-xpacs.276806/

    I mean, the amount of effort it takes to find out what you people actually think about the game is pretty small. But when that stuff gets repeated back to you, you blow it off like it doesn't mean anything, lol. Or worse, you act like it wasn't said. Yet there it is.
  7. Triconix Augur

    By your logic, classic-kunark is complete trash seeing how many on the forums want it shortened on TLPs every cycle. It's almost as if you can't get the full understanding until you actually try it. Shocking.

    Typical troll with his fallacious logical posts.

    BTW if thousands of people struggle beating something, including the top guilds in the game, it's a good indication it's difficult. But again, don't let common sense get in the way of your self ignorance. You're just the almighty video game prophecy who lays waste to all virtual entertainment. Nothing is difficult for you and your blessed fingers of button smashing.
  8. Machen New Member


    Likewise if the few guilds that actually do beat it say, "Hey, that was really difficult!" Which they all did.
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  9. Atomos Augur

    That's correct, or partially correct, Classic-Kunark has a big lack of content and that is why people want it shortened. I wouldn't call it complete trash though. Although Plane of Sky could really use a revamp. My logic checked out, thanks!

    Thousands of people are bad at the game, it doesn't mean the content is hard. I'd love to hear what a top guild (hint: not a guild you've ever been in) thinks is hard on EQ.
  10. Triconix Augur

    Nah, can't be true. It doesn't fit his narrative. All lies and only reason why people think it was hard was because Atomos, the fabled slayer of nothing past 2003, wasn't there to carry them.

    Edit: and he actually thinks his logic is sound. Lol
    Edit 2: https://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/progress/encounter.php?id=315 lol
  11. Atomos Augur

    You continually create your own narratives for others. The amount of times you've put words in others' mouths is... well, pretty much every time you post. According to your profile, that's 2083 times. You've created 2083 narratives for other people, congratulations. 2084 when you inevitably respond to this post, despite the amount of times you claim I'm a troll and it's pointless to converse with me. *says doing this thing is stupid, but keeps doing it anyway*

    I'm not sure what you think the point of your link is, but if you think anyone looks at that and thinks anything other than the game is easy and players are bad, you are wrong. Again, there are people who can't even auto attack properly.

    Let's not forget about how you said keybinds/macros/multibinding is bad and you should always click everything... your credibility is in the negatives anyway.
  12. Tweakfour17 Augur

    Did you even read the thread you quoted? Your post has the implication that everything post PoP sounds terrible when in reality the complaint is generally about 2 expacs that have less content than the rest and the fact that there is no lvl increase for too long.
    Triconix likes this.
  13. Triconix Augur

    The amount of irony in this sentence is simply immeasurable.
    He tried so hard to yet again continue his narrative of this anti post-POP era hate. I didn't even have to try to get him to completely show his bias and unparalleled hate for anything past POP. He simply throws out obvious logical fallacies. Here's the latest one:

    Statement: Post-POP expansions sound terrible because of this post stating that it needs to be shortened.
    Reply: By that logic, Classic-Kunark is terrible (trash was my exact word) because people annually ask for the same thing [shortened time periods]
    His Rebuttal: Classic-Kunark isn't terrible it just lacks content.
    Me confused: But that's exactly what everyone on the thread he posted as evidence for his anti post-POP agenda was saying about the 70s era...?

    So based on his logic, content is terrible because people want it shortened, but only if it's the 70s era and beyond. If people want early eras shortened, it's not terrible, just simply lacking enough to do. (Even though the post he provided as his golden chalice of evidence literally has a majority of people simply stating the content is good, but just lacks enough to last 9 months)

    [IMG]

    Atomos Troll Level in the stratosphere by now. The dude has built his hatred for post-POP content so tall that's it's paper thin. It took nothing more than a little poke by me to show is glaring contradictions and bias to watch his entire rationale crumble. His reality is so warped that he'll use anything he can find to fit his motive, regardless if it actually supports his argument or not.

    Edit: This is the first reply to his supporting thread
    :rolleyes:
  14. Abundant Elder


    +1

    #stampofapproval #1alltimehourslogged #salute
  15. Abundant Elder

    With all due respect as someone who has raid lead both #1 PvE and PvP raw sandbox EQ, and guild lead I'd definitely not call almost anything PvE alone even remotely on any level with anything EQ PvP wise. Every difficult encounter you can envision or muster up PvE based still has no addition of PvP thrust all over the same circumstances. Not downing PvE still prefer the health and civility of it all, and 14 servers deep I've done more EQ PvE than PvP playing both old live in the haydays (Veeshan and RZ/Zek Merger). The highest tier of PvE'r just doesn't have it competitively on top tier PvP'rs in regards to total wealth of knowledge and ceiling of difficulty/backbone/willpower. Just is what it is folks. Doesn't mean top tier PvE'rs don't have immense skill, ability, knowledge, and know how. If we were picking teams for ball I'd be selecting mostly PvP experienced knowing they are more capable of dropping the boot heel where needed, and not folding.

    Fine agreeing to disagree too, not a big deal topic. Also not saying what you mentioned isn't highly difficult and badass for what it may be worth.

    Most folks playing Rogue, Druid, Ench, Sham, and a handful of other classes are often lazy playing too without realistic conception to scale their class power and weight pulled in solo/group/raid. Not worth getting into specifics, most folks don't even know the level of we ran with highest tier P99. God forbid I even mention Shadowbane around these forums too. Doesn't get anymore hardcore for MMO background combining EQ and SB outside of heavy hours EQ + UO or EQ + DAOC. Most other games in some regard are simpleton balanced rpg/instance infused kiddy time horseshit.
  16. Abundant Elder

    +1
  17. Machen New Member


    I played exclusively on pvp the first five years of EQ's existence. Finally left pvp and tried live for the first times around OoW launch. I completely agree about the difficulty level of the pvp environment. I played in both the top guild on my server and in lesser guilds that competed against them at times. Things like completing our first cleric Ragefire fight in solb after fending off all the competing guilds for half a week 24/7 while its spawn window was open, then actually doing the Ragefire fight while enemy guilds streamed into the zone trying to take the kill.... (And we lost a few of those before we won one.) I'd warrant we had more difficulty than any live guild ever did in completing our first cleric epic, and it was DIFFICULT.

    The reality is, most raid encounters past Gates never would have ever been completed if pvp interference was an option. Certainly something like TFC in Underfoot never would have. The PVE difficulty is enough that any added pvp difficulty would put it into the impossible range.

    Either way, the only argument I was making is that there is difficulty in Everquest. Unfortunately the extra level of difficulty presented by the pvp environment is a thing long gone from EQ and not likely to return.
  18. Abundant Elder

    Word, was mostly referring to the "you don't know what you're talking about" while referencing PvE as a highest difficulty. Still very difficult though, and not entirely trying to disagree. Good points to be made for PvE EQ being solid difficulty wise for sure. Enjoy the weekend all.
  19. Atomos Augur

    Would love some quotes of me saying I hate post-PoP EQ, lol. More words in other people's mouths, it never ends. Clickers wondering why 22 year old games are hard, rofl.
  20. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    First, a friendly reminder that if a certain know-it-all is annoying you, the ignore feature works wonders.

    Second, going back to the title of this thread, this was supposed to be about suggestions to make Rogues more enjoyable in the future, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. That doesn't mean you have to make things easier for them, just make them more engaging. With that said, there is an argument that can be made for making things easier for them also.

    As it stands, there are enough other classes that are powerful and fun enough to play that Rogues basically get overlooked. As much as some people want to put the genie back in the bottle, and reverse this player power increase, it's not happening. They may dial things back here and there, but as long as a Cleric/Enchanter combo can wreck every inch of content it comes into contact with, there is room for a Rogue's life to be improved in the early game.

    Way back when, we had things to do. Scouting and corpse recovery mostly. Scouting still exists to some degree, if you aren't playing with people using SEQ. How many are in that room? Is there a named? A Rogue can still safely answer those questions for the most part. How much people care to have them answered is a question though. With the player power increases and population density in early EQ on a TLP, it's pretty much just pull everything and worry about the rest if you can't handle the pull.

    Corpse recovery is less important now, but it does matter if you want a res. Invis or IVU are generally enough for that in the common places that people group. Still a Rogue can do that at least as well, or better, when it's needed.

    But when you think about it, those two things were basically all Rogues had other than stabbing things, and now they are nearly unnecessary for the most part. So the class is not engaging, it's just about convincing people you can do good DPS, and then doing good DPS.

    I think it could be interesting to move some of the Rogue abilities to an earlier point. Things that were mentioned like Escape or SoS could certainly be more useful at an earlier level. If this was done, people certainly wouldn't be dropping their Cleric/Enchanter combos to play a Rogue. Nobody would be picking them over Mages, as a class to play, or for a group DPS. But maybe those who do play them would have a little more utility, and could surprise some people here and there.

    I don't want to get too much into messing with Rogue DPS, but there are some Rogue-only weapons in Classic that could have their damage or ratios improved minorly to make pre-Epic Rogues more powerful. Little things like that could make a difference without unbalancing anything.

    I think it's worth a look by the devs to see if there are some simple improvements they could make to improve the player experience with the Rogue class. It would be nice to se some excitement for the class again. If it doesn't happen it won't be the end of the world, but there is certainly a lot of room to improve Rogues without upsetting the overall player power the game already grants the other classes now.