Some suggestions for making Rogues more enjoyable in future TLPs.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by WokeCat, Jul 30, 2021.

  1. WokeCat Augur

    Improve Rogue's Hide/Sneak. Unlike 20 years ago, most of the mobs in Sebilis and Karnor's Castle see through this ability, which makes Rogues' invis feel even more pointless. I frequently find myself sitting at the zone-line while I wait for our SK to handle CRs because he can run at full movement speed with his invis, and if he gets aggro, he doesn't die, he can tank for a bit, and/or feign death. If I aggro anything I die almost instantly because I can't tank and have no way of dropping aggro. I suggest that DayBreak simply make Rogue Hide/Sneak work against virtually all mobs.

    I would also suggest maybe removing the slow movement speed while using hide/sneak. As a Rogue I frequently find myself using a Larrikan's Mask or Invis potion to get through Trak's Teeth, and it just feels wrong. It feels like other classes are better at invis than Rogues are because they can invis themselves, and others, and move at their normal speed. I could almost see the trade-off for the slow movement speed if hide/sneak worked against every mob in the game like it used to, but half of the mobs in the game now see through it.

    Make Rogues able to backstab from the front again. I'm not talking about Chaotic Stab. Rogues used to be able to backstab for minimal damage while tanking mobs. It doesn't sound like much, but it was better than nothing, especially when solo'ing.

    Bring Assassination back at level 60. This wasn't even overpowered since it only worked on level 45 mobs, but it would still be nice to have, and made the class more fun to play.

    Bring back the old double backstab. When I hit level 55, I was so excited to finally have double backstab. After the first mob my group pulled I thought the ability must have been removed from the game because I wasn't double-backstabbing. Turns out the ability is still in the game, but it only procs once every 6 backstabs or so, and still misses half the time. The old version double backstabbed every time. I genuinely don't know why this was changed?

    Make Ragebringer a range slot item again. This item gets replaced super early in the game. If we could still equip it in our range slot, it would make the item a worth-while quest for a long time. We're in Kunark and I already have my Ragebringer in my backpack because Renard's Belt of Quickening has more haste on it, and Feverblade and Razor Sharp Short Sword have better ratios, and an insane proc, and I just use Ragebringer for my backstab macro.

    If anyone else has any suggestions or feedback feel free to add them, but this is just my perspective from playing this class. Or even if you disagree with me, I would be curious as to why :)~
    Vindaven and Elite_raider like this.
  2. Iyacc Augur

    I have no opinion on rogues in general but the only reason this sentence is an issue is the unique loot rules of this server. There's a ton of items on this server most people never saw or even heard of because they are normally No Drop or rare drops off rare creatures.

    This is not a normal issue and probably doesn't need correcting for TLPs in general. The issue exists on Mischief/Thron because they are tradable and dropping off multiple creatures that actually get killed by more people.
  3. WokeCat Augur

    That's a very valid point. However I still don't think that it would be a game-breaking change to make Ragebringer range slot equip-able again.
  4. Kodachi Elder

    I mean those specific weapons sure, but the whole bandoleer ragebringer thing has been an argument on all tlps. I'd hesistate to make it range slot useable just because it'd destroy any range slot option outside of PoP... wait, no that'd be fine because all the options are terrible anyway.

    I just assume rogues are meant to be semi crappy and dumb... my bard box outdpses me if I tank with my rogue, but my rogue tanks competently... which doesn't make any more sense to me honestly.

    Rogues are just a weirdo semi broken class and you just kinda have to accept it or reroll.
  5. Machen New Member


    My feedback is play past the first 2-3 expansions and almost everything that you ask for happens.
    Aneia and Genoane like this.
  6. Bobbybick Only Banned Twice

    Lock Rogues to GoD and unlock zerkers in classic.
  7. WokeCat Augur

    Sort of like Monks with their epic fists. One of the Monks in my group last night said he'll be using Epic Fists until Plane of Time and I thought about how boring that must be. Monks get all of these badass weapons that have better ratio than Rogue, Warrior, Ranger etc. weapons, but apparently none of them are considered viable to equip due to how over-the-top monk's epic fists are?

    I plan on it. I'm actually more excited about Luclin and Planes of Power, but I'm offering genuine and honest feedback for simple changes that would make a very unpopular class a lot more compelling to play. The changes would not break the class, and many would still consider them sub-par, but it would restore some of what made Rogues awesome in the first place. I found myself trapped at the Sebilis zone-line last night because the first frog I conned had see invis. I just don't understand why rogue stealth was made completely irrelevant. My Rogue is as reliant on invis potions as my Cleric is because in most instances Rogue hide offers no advantage over regular invis.

    I feel like a lot of people genuinely don't understand that Rogue stealth has been heavily nerfed, and doesn't reliably work in most situations where you would need it. I begged my group leader not to send me down to the Shrooms to drag a corpse last night, explaining to him that there's about a 95% chance that one of the mobs will have see invis along the way, and sure enough, I aggro'd something and barely escaped with my life trying to run to the zone-line. Literally any other melee class would have been a better option to send since my hide isn't any better than regular invis, and I have no survivability or way of dropping aggro.
  8. Machen New Member


    Rogue stealth hasn't been nerfed. We never got SoS in these eras.

    There are lots of ways past mobs if you learn how to use your tools properly. Sneak is a hugely powerful tool. Wait for pathing, wait for their backs to be turned. They can't see you if you are behind them. Use the server ticks if you need to be in front briefly. Every now and then you get unlucky and get caught, but a rogue who knows what he is doing can usually pull off amazing things.
  9. WokeCat Augur

    I played a Rogue 20 years ago, and I remember when Hide/Sneak was buffed early on to essentially make Rogues invisible to virtually every mob in the game (it was the same change that made it work against Undead -- this wasn't always the case). This is also why Rogue's are literally used to film every single walk-through video on YouTube:




    So yes, Rogue stealth has been majorly nerfed since then. Now about 25% of all mobs in Karnor's and Sebilis can see through Rogue hide/sneak.

    I'm fully aware of how sneak works, but that's not really relevant when you're trying to move around a dungeon where see invis mobs are stationary and will remain unmoving until someone aggros or kills them.

    I'm sure anyone who also played a Rogue 20 years ago can vouch for this claim. I can understand why someone who may have played Rogue later on might think this is the way Rogues always were, but it's not true. I can only theorize that this was done in later stages of the game because the developers decided that gutting Rogue's core abilities and then re-introducing them in AAs would be a good idea or a way of creating "new" content.

    Edit: This is a thread from the year 2000. Pay close attention to the section labeled:

    "List of Creatures That Can See Through Hide:
    Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
    Fire Giants
    Scorn Banshees
    Lichs
    Loathing Lichs
    Evil Eyes
    Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)"


    Notice how it's mostly raid-tier mobs, and no mention of regular Drolvargs and Frogloks being able to see through it? That's because they couldn't. It was incredibly rare for any mob, any where, to see through Rogue hide/sneak. Now if you walk passed 10 mobs in any dungeon, you are almost guaranteed to draw aggro from at least one of them. There's no "sneaking" behind mobs that literally don't move.
  10. Shakara Augur

    Sad thing is bards are just better at that since they have that and can lull problem mob in addition move quickly while sneaked.
  11. Shakara Augur

    I think the biggest missed potential with rogues is their make poison tradeskill. If you took every poison and increased its effect by 1 order of magnitude they could be a really fun class. Other than that what i would change is. Make backstab unmissable ( you are a skilled fighter hitting a mob from behind you shouldn't miss right?), gives rogues backstab at lvl 1 (every other class gets their special attacks at lvl 1 why do rogues have to wait till lvl 10??????), give them SoS at lvl 1 in classic and give them escape at lvl 1 in classic. with these buffs you would see a lot more rogues and they would not break the game.
  12. Pappasalt Augur

    Every class almost gets better over time/expansions...play past PoP.
    Skuz likes this.
  13. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Presumably you meant "every other Melee class". but even then you are still wrong, you could maybe argue that Backstab should be a level 6 ability but not level 1 and that's so small a change is it even worth it?

    Level - Skill

    Warrior:
    01 1H Blunt
    01 1H Piercing
    01 1H Slashing
    01 2H Blunt
    01 2H Piercing
    01 2H Slashing
    01 Archery
    01 Bash
    01 Bind Wound
    01 Defense
    01 Hand to Hand
    01 Kick
    01 Offense
    01 Slam
    01 Taunt
    01 Throwing
    05 Dodge
    05 Parry
    10 Disarm
    13 Dual Wield
    15 Double Attack
    15 Riposte
    16 Research
    46 Triple Attack

    Monk:
    01 1H Blunt
    01 2H Blunt
    01 Bind Wound
    01 Defense
    01 Dodge
    01 Dual Wield
    01 Hand to Hand
    01 Kick
    01 Mend
    01 Offense
    01 Throwing
    05 Round Kick
    06 Intimidation
    08 Sneak
    10 Block
    10 Disarm
    10 Tiger Claw
    15 Double Attack
    16 Research
    17 Feign Death
    20 Eagle Strike
    20 Riposte
    25 Dragon Punch *Human & Drakkin Only*
    25 Tail Rake *Iksar Only*
    30 Flying Kick
    46 Triple Attack

    Berserker:
    01 2H Blunt
    01 2H Piercing
    01 2H Slashing
    01 Bind Wound
    01 Defense
    01 Hand to Hand
    01 Kick
    01 Offense
    01 Throwing
    06 Frenzy
    10 Dodge
    10 Disarm
    15 Double Attack
    16 Research
    20 Parry
    25 Riposte
    46 Triple Attack

    Rogue:
    01 1H Blunt
    01 1H Piercing
    01 1H Slashing
    01 Archery
    01 Bind Wound
    01 Defense
    01 Hand to Hand
    01 Offense
    01 Sneak
    01 Throwing
    03 Hide
    05 Dodge
    05 Pick Lock
    07 Pick Pockets
    10 Backstab
    10 Disarm
    10 Parry
    10 Safe Fall
    10 Sense Traps
    11 Intimidation
    13 Dual Wield
    16 Double Attack
    16 Research
    18 Apply Poison
    20 Make Poison
    25 Riposte
    46 Triple Attack
    Tweakfour17 likes this.
  14. Atomos Augur

    I fully agree that Rogues should have backstab at level 1.
    I played a Rogue on Live while waiting for Mischief to launch. It's pretty insane how little the class has evolved over 22 years. On Live while leveling you don't really need to level Make Poison anymore until you are raiding, there is a massive DD proc poison you can purchase directly from vendors. It's probably a bit too strong for TLP (I already don't remember what kind of numbers I was seeing). I also think having assassinate from level 1 would be fine. The proc chance of that is so low, it's not going to matter if one in every 10-15 EXP mobs instantly dies, especially with the speed at which they are already dying.

    I'm really just up for anything that's going to make the lesser played classes more desirable to play, although Rogue stuff revolving around autoattack is one of the reasons it's unpopular, and my suggestions don't change that.


    I'd like to point out that Rogues do not get Kick, while the other 3 classes do, and that Kick is not like it was in era, it actually does damage.
  15. Shakara Augur

    I think that list is old War, Ranger, Monk, BST (I think), and Zerker all get kick lvl 1. Paladin ,SK, Cleric(I think), and War all get Bash lvl 1. I think that should be a justification enough that Rogues get backstab lvl 1 as well. You are right its not a huge change but I think its significant enough.
    Unlike live servers where you can hit lvl 10 in an hour with a little help. on TLPs many players spend anywhere from 2-7 days on levels 1-10 which while is not a lot its enough to turn someone away from a class. Especially when most classes are getting cool new abilities every level and as a rogue you spend the first 10 levels with 2 skills that don't even reliably work until level 20 with sneak and hide. I know I have tried to start a rogue on a TLP and while I don't think classic gameplay is super engaging on any level especially at low levels its just even more brutal on a rogue. With early backstab you could at least enjoy some big satisfying hits in addition being able to level the skill.
  16. Shakara Augur


    While true kick on rogues is not impactful since Bash, backstab and kick all share the same timer so, you would never use kick.
  17. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Yeah the lists might have been a bit out of date (I will update).

    Presumably Rogues don't get kick because they can poison their weapons, but I have zero problem with them getting Kick at level 01 so long as it shared the same timer as Backstab like Round Kick, Frenzy & Bash (which requires a shield) do.

    I spent 2 days getting to Level 10 on Phinigel as a Shaman which had "classic" TLP XP, and a lot of that was solo.
    If you are taking 7 days to get to level 10 on a server with "progression" TLP XP (which is far better than "classic" TLP XP) you are slacking big-time.

    They don't?

    None of the special attacks are remotely reliable at low levels, Rogues aren't suffering any more than others there.

    Whole point of the early game is that things are purposefully crap by design, every class feels pretty rubbish until it reaches the lofty heights of level 50 by which time they are just starting to become capable of their chosen class.

    You aren't supposed to be like some mighty hero right out of the gate, you are just some local scrub who picked up some rusty old weapons or learnt a few crappy spells from some rubbish old hedge-wizard's diary and is still learning their new trade as an adventurer, that's one reason why EQ was kind of unique & still is in the early game, you start off as nothing special at all really.
  18. Vulken9 New Member

    This has been a topic many times. The primary advantage of rogue is being able to dps in a full group or raid setting with near zero possibility of drawing aggro. Plus, once SoS becomes a thing, you can get to nearly any xp camp as a replacement or corpse drag replacements back if no mage is available.

    The problem in the earlier expansions is BS is tied directly to weapon damage. So, white damage lags other classes because 1hp ratios are pretty terrible compared to other 1h. I tried to bandolier a few times but it really wasn't worth it for me, especially once you hit 61.

    Most of the early complaints go away with progression as has been mentioned. I stopped at L83 on phinny but my general impression was "what's the point of this class?". IMO, the other chain wearing melee class brought more to the table and if rogues just went away at that point would anyone miss them?

    I will say having modern poisons in the first few days of pop on phinny (and quarm had them throughout) made life a lot more interesting. Not only were we able to generate a lot of dps, we also had to pay attention to aggro because a string of procs would lead to a dead rogue.
    Bobbybick likes this.
  19. Atomos Augur


    Rogue is the only class in the game that literally does not start with a single thing though.

    How do you know Bash and Kick share a timer with Backstab if Rogues never get Bash and Kick? And even if it did share a timer, that's fine, you'd at least have Kick to use from level 1 to 10.
  20. Shakara Augur

    Mage: Summons a pet at lvl 1 that can 1 shot mobs by itself
    Wizard: nukes do about 50-70% of a mobs HP at lvl 1
    Paladin: Long CD insta cast full heal (lay on hands) at lvl 1
    SK: Long CD insta kill or near insta kill at lvl 1
    Necro: Can summon a powerful pet and lifetap at lvl 1
    Cleric: can heal 70-80% of anyone's HP (near similar lvl) and can go invulnerable at lvl 1
    Druids: Can heal, nuke, and snare all at lvl 1
    These classes all have very impactful and powerful abilities at their disposal at lvl 1. In addition they are class defining and give you an idea of where your class is going. This is true with most classes however not all of them are as strong in the early game as the ones above
    War: Berserker state and innate damage mitigation (not as flashy but relevant)
    Monk: Multiple attacks in one round (duel wield and kick) at lvl 1
    Bards: Can move while casting and resourceless abilities at lvl 1
    Shamans: variety pack of spells (ADPS buffs, heal, nuke,) at lvl 1
    The only classes that don't have interesting lvl 1 abilities are Rogue Beastlord and Berserker and 2 of them were designed years after launch. Rogues lvl 1 ability is sneak which is niche and gimmiky. You can roll a halfling and have both sneak and hide and they start leveled up to a degree where they work most of the time. To reiterate its not a huge impact but its defiantly warranted and would give more people especially new rogue players a reason to stick with the class.