So.. Xp nerf

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by silku, Jan 22, 2015.

  1. Ratbo Peep Augur

    Actually, we decide what the problems are - with our wallets.
    I see very little "fun" or much "replay value" for my alt accounts.
    Three didn't buy TDS - and two are FTP now.
    And the worst part is - I LIKE what I've seen of TDS content (save the huge hit-points).
    Many guilds made our Mains get TDS at release. Most everyone who leveled an alt toon on the main account over 100 - regrets it now.
  2. Battleaxe Augur

    We, not me and not you.

    Actually I see far more returnees than I usually see. Far more box teams doing well and somewhat counter intuitively far more box teams looking for the odd live player to help out on scattered missions.

    One reason is merely increasing the number of hitpoints impacts the kill rate but doesn't do a lot to make content more difficult. People are having fun and I'm seeing a lot of mission replay going on (a lot of it because augs are in group missions and the RNG is fickle).

    TDS is actually one of the better expansions. Why even a critic has posted
    Sure, every game that offers overly generous FtP is plagued by people who like to play for free. But the cure for that is not making content FtP friendly. The cure is to make FtP something you might do for 2 weeks and would never consider doing longer. Allowing max level 50 for FtP toons would be a good start. People gunna vote with their wallet Daybreak outta see some looooong green and not just chump change if it's gunna give them a seat at the table.
  3. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    Actually the point of free to play is to get people hooked on EQ or to get them to spend money in the marketplace that they might not have spent on a subscription. Free to play isn't being offered as anything other then another way to generate game income. So it doesn't need a cure.
  4. Battleaxe Augur

    Actually, FtP should be Free to Try. FtP with hoped for micro-transactions has almost always meant an economically under performing title. FtP kinda signals a person isn't up for spending long green doncha know. see Free Realms - up to 10M players but not too many payers.

    If someone were to write "TDS is so little fun for me I've stopped paying for my two alt accounts. I realize that means I can't play them at all, but why pay if you aren't going to play?" I'd understand them.

    But if they write "TDS is so little fun for me two of my alt accounts are now FtP and while they are limited I can still play them. BTW a FtP Bard rocks." that's a sitting at the bar and eating the free popcorn/peanuts but not springing for a beer problem.
  5. Zanarnar Augur

    Let me counter with this: If you release new content for a MMO and the majority of your players take one look at it and just stay in the older content; wouldn't you at least take a good hard look at your new content to see WHY the older content is more attractive? MMO players LOVE to devour content. We love new toys, new areas to explores, and new toys/loot/etc to collect. (and to be fair, we also don't like to be drug TOO far outside our comfort zones. As a whole, I know not everyone fits these generalizations)

    IF we are ignoring your new areas in favor of the old something is wrong. The new areas are missing something. The rewards are too poor, the design is bad, the mechanics are annoying, etc, etc, etc. Something is off. MOST people would try to make the new content more attractive. Instead they chose to make the old content much worse to make their new stuff look better by comparison.

    That doesn't change the fact that the underlying issues with the new stuff still remain. Even worse you've annoyed a good chunk of your player base and introduced unintended consequences (merc leveling in ha's (or anywhere but the new content once your 101+) for example) without really slowing down the group you intended to.

    Personally I was still working my way through the RoF zones/tasks. I'd gotten SL, CC, and most of EW done but I was nowhere NEAR done with that expansion; much less had finished all the stuff in CoTF (I think I just have the Neriak stuff done and little else). I don't get to play much, and I'm not a very outgoing person so I spend (sorry, spent) a lot of time soloing/moloing. This XP nerf was the single deciding factor in me choosing to cancel my account and not buy the expansion.

    Why do I keep hanging around here, you might ask? Because I am really hoping to see that decision reversed. The powers that be made it very clear the only way to vote was with your wallet; so I did.
    Piasa likes this.
  6. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    Actually since they can handle the FTP players with no additional resources hardware/software/people pretty much now any money from the FTP players is pure gravy. So any money they get from FTP is a a bonus doncha know.

    And almost every title out there has or is based on FTP with micro transactions. The games that do have subscriptions mostly have free to play in addition (see pure gravy above) Far from being under performing it seems to be the way the industry is headed. Of course I guess all those companies out there with FTP games using micro transactions could be wrong.

    Oh and Free Realms was a game directed towards kids. Kids don't generally have much money an with all the law suits against companies that let kids somehow run up bills for their parents it wasn't a winning proposition.
  7. Tharzak Elder

    Your situation is near identical to my own as well as your response. I purchased one copy of TDS and simply cancelled my second and third accounts. I haven't completely given up hope on them or I would have cancelled them all.
    Piasa likes this.
  8. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    I will admit I felt much as you did with the initial release of TDS and the extreme exp nerf to RoF along with the changes to cotf HA. But in time with a few changes in TDS things got better. The nerf to RoF and older content exp was far to extreme I thought though I had no intention of exping in old content. I usually got my new levels and aa in the new content. This time was an exception I did most of my exp and aa in cotf waiting until TDS was changed a bit.

    Although a lot of people were hesitant with TDS it has gotten better. I think some stuff is still a bit overtuned for some players. I might add I have been able to get through everything I have tried though at times it took some thought and consideration before I did. This doesn't mean everyone is up to what I did. Could the bar be lowered a bit without hurting anyone? I think so... is TDS worth playing? Yes I think it is. You might want to reconsider.
  9. Battleaxe Augur

    Any money received from FtP players is small potatoes considering that some percentage of FtP accounts would be Gold subscribers if FtP did not exist.

    A whole bunch of them are not wrong. Their products no longer exist.

    I'm pretty sure that I was one of the first non-employees to point out this issue to SOE (now Daybreak). Children are unlikely to have unlimited access to a credit card or pre-paid game cash. They have to convince parents to allow them to buy virtual items. Adults may have the money but many have some sales resistance when it comes to buying pixels especially if they don't affect the game. Besides if FtP appeals to you why would you pay money and no longer have the tP part for Free?

    IMO a clever non-raider, instead of complaining about not being able to spend a second year cycling Gribble HA's, would focus on post level 100 and discuss any that seemed overtuned. But you'll note that there only been 1, perhaps 2, such threads since TDS release.

    Just for the record, PoWar and TDS both rock and IMO the hardcore non-raiders who've gotten items out of these two environments know they've been well rewarded for their efforts. It's just to bad level 100- HA's were WAAAAAAAAAY under tuned and over rewarding.
  10. segap Augur

    Also have to wonder how many people use ftp to remain engaged in the community while mostly taking a break. Without ftp, perhaps some people would completely disappear and not resubscribe at some point. Ftp also has to have some impact on maintaining a larger community that makes the game more compelling for those that are paying. I agree that there are those that are free riding because they can and would pay if they had to. Those are cannibalized subs. But there are probably a lot more variables that the people with spreadsheets are being paid to find the right balance of.
  11. Battleaxe Augur

    A what? You're allowed to remain a Gold subscriber "to remain engaged in the community while mostly taking a break." FtP doesn't get any credit for allowing this to happen. People took breaks before FtP.

    People can't afford EQ but can afford a cable TV/internet bundle? It's possible, but again people took breaks before FtP.

    You misspelled "less" as "more". The fact is landlords are generally advised not to make special arrangements with tenants. When you let one person not pay the word spreads like wildfire and the next thing you know several are not paying and the one's who are paying are trying to figure out why they are.

    If you tell people your product is worth as little a $0.00/mo they are going to tend to believe you.

    When I'm regularly told to make a Bard on another account, use Heroic Character on him, PL him in HA's, and then go FtP I see that an an issue and not as a positive feature should the Bard want to take a break from being a Gold account.

    None of which has much to do with this thread...except:
    "Playing in the newest content should always be the most attractive, and demolishing content from several expansions ago should not be the fastest way to advance your character."

    to which I'd add
    FtP should be Free to Try and not an alternate permanent playstyle.
    Starter Edition is Free up to level 20 gives people time to decide if they like the game enough to pay for it.

    Daybreak ought not have people cycling Gribble HA's for 2 years or playing for free permanently. Both situations cheapen the game to the ground. Holy cow how did people ever get past the Plane of Justice trials or manage before FtP??!! Just wow.
  12. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    LOL how do you have any idea what income gets generated from the FTP players? You can't even understand a point of view that isn't yours. And that's not an insult just a fact. Free to play and micro transactions are working for many many games out there. SOE and many other game companies out there don't have free to play because they think it will lose them money. Why is your opinion so much more valid then all the companies out there using free to play and microtransactions? Don't be silly.
    Lisandra likes this.
  13. Garshok Augur

    Depends on how you define 'good xp grind zone.' I liked doing Eastern Wastes and Crystal Caverns for awhile - brought back lots of good memories - then moved on to Chelsith's and then Heart of Fear.

    Was it the 'optimal XP' spot? Dunno. But for me it was fun - a lot more fun for me than, say, ETWK.

    And of course you saying that only as someone with a professional or extra-curricular interest in personality assessments, and certainly did not mean it as a weakly veiled personal attack on someone without your preferences. It adds so much to the discussion!
  14. Benzarden Augur

    Then what is keeping you from staying there? Absolutely nothing. The zones still exist. It was already sub optimal experience. But to you "it was fun." So go back and play in the zones that you think are fun. You still get sub optimal experience. You still get all the amazing items. You still get the fun. HoF is still really good experience for toons level 100 and below, even with a 101+ toon in the group. It's not great experience for the 101+ toon, but why should it be? I was face tanking named on my Wizard with a healer merc in there yesterday. Three year old content should not be elite experience for characters that severely out level the mobs.
    Battleaxe likes this.
  15. Garshok Augur

    And, thanks to SOE's (and currently Daybreak's) pricing policies - you are allowed go FtP as well. Ain't it grand?

    Seems odd that folks who are so convinced of SOE's infallibility on other issues have so little faith here.

    So FtP people only communicate or interact in-game with other FtP people? Just because you may not interact with any FtP players doesn't mean other players don't. Sounds like you don't want them in the community, but they are there.

    Yup, people did take breaks before FtP. And couldn't pop in and chat with former guildies and other friends now and then, see what was up - perhaps get drawn back into the game as a paying customer - without plunking down $15 for a month. How many people would do that every few months for a game that they had ostensibly 'quit'? Wonder if any of the people who have come back may have logged in on their toon a few times to chat with folks first. Wonder how many wouldn't have done that if SOE increased the cost of entry by making them plunk down $15 first.

    Fact is, unless Daybreak makes available a lot more financial and other data than SOE has, any bloviating about FtP's net impact one way or the other is pure speculation, either way.


    Permanent? Yeah, TDS T1 armor may be non-prestige - what about augs? The AA cap?

    You might be able to get away with a caster, go gold for awhile to level/AA him up - but with augs, Rk 1 spells and the like he is going to be far more limited than a Gold counterpart. Tanks even more so. I'd expect the number of level 105 (or even level 100) toons running around doing stuff who FtP are pretty small.

    Level 20? Yes, that's going to really give them the opportunity to experience the community of EQ and get an idea of what EQ is like at the higher levels.

    I can certainly see limiting FTP, but level 20? Don't even bother having it, IMO.
    Lisandra likes this.
  16. Harabakc Augur

    Limiting free to play more so than it is currently is pretty dumb. It's the single best selling point of any of us talking a non-EQ player into trying it. On top of the fact that absolutely ZERO of the classes have at level 20 the role they have at 70+.

    And holy , do some people have a hard-on for gribble bashing.
  17. Atvar Augur

    Taking away FtP won't increase revenue.

    Some people will never come back at all, thus never re-subbing. Some people would quit over seeing their $15 a month box group jump to $50+. Some people would just share gold accounts with friends and still not pay a cent more. Oh, and you'd make a lot of people angry about the bait & switch.

    I think I could accomplish more by myself than a full group of FtP toons.
  18. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    PoWar exp is fine as that zone was set up as a loot zone not an exp zone. TDS I'm having a love/hate relationship with at the moment, far too much water for my liking, with the usual bugged sharks & turtles (seems we learnt nothing), narrow tunnels that you keep getting stuck on, and some zones are very hard to negotiate, even the mystical path can't do it! HA's difficulty was where it should have been, it was marketed for 2/3 players plus mercs, the reward on the other hand I will agree was out of whack and far too easy to gear up and get exp, sadly of the 4 proper zones 2 have pathing issues (Neriak & ToR), which just leaves Ethernere & Argin Hiz, both are relatively easy.

    This is my main beef with the RoF exp nerf, RoF is still more of a challenge than most of CoTF yet is now out of whack for RVR, for the same level of mobs as CotF.
  19. Detheb Augur

    Battleblade, i can't fathom how you cannot see this as an issue. Granted, I have an odd perspective because I'm playing on Fippy currently, but its the same principal.

    On Fippy(In Underfoot currently), Lichen Creep/Volska's Husk/Convorteum are the best exp spots. If you have a group, setting up camp in one of these zones and blasting through exp is pretty incredible. However, the RVR is completely shifted if I dont have a group. If i want to duo with my War/Shm, Im not at any risk of dieing in UF, however, it takes forever to kill. So, i go back to Beza/Fort Mech/Mech Guardian. Its all about killing mobs quick enough to actually justify experiencing in the zones.

    If TDS increased mob hitpoints by X amount, for the same level content, then you should see an increase in exp for TDS, not a decrease in exp for CoTF. Thats how EverQuest has ALWAYS worked. Current content just gave better experience, because you're meant to group, but older content kept the same experience, so if you're not in a group, you're not spending 10x the amount of time to get to the same point.

    I dont even think this is a casual vs hardcore problem, or a payed vs ftp(I pay $15 for 3 accounts a month, because I have to so I can play on Fippy). It simply comes down to RVR should not be skewed to always having a full group, when many people solo(You only have one acct, zomg lol), or duo and older content is more viable. Taking that away from them(Even Raiders in off time. RIght now, there is like 15 people on in my guild, and all of them are afk, so i have to exp with myself) is just hurting the overall player base.
  20. Battleaxe Augur
    "As we move into The Darkened Sea, we've made a few changes to ensure that adventuring in the newest content will be the best way to gain experience to advance their characters in both levels and AA points. Playing in the newest content should always be the most attractive, and demolishing content from several expansions ago should not be the fastest way to advance your character."

    Older content has not always kept the same experience. see experience adjustments to LDoN, OMM missions, and effectiveness adjustments to swarming. In each case the benefits of remaining in older content exceeded the benefits of progressing in new content. In each case adjustments were made.

    I don't believe (for example) the total reward for doing Gribble HA's (exp per kill, low risk, fast kills, completion bonus, random named, and currency) should have been greater than playing the larger game much less continue to do so after a new expansion is released. Nor do I believe overly generous situations set a new standard that all future content must meet.

    Yes, so long as there is great disparity in class soloability non-raid content should always favor playing in a full group over soloing. EQ is not a soloing game.

    I don't blame people who accuse Daybreak for ruining their fun by drying up the advantage in doing old content. Everyone likes baroooken. But I do think it's a bit much when they go beyond "Well that was fun while it lasted." and instead say "Give it (our waaaay over rewarding content) back!!".

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