So how come monks never got an insta kill?

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Pikollo, Sep 4, 2020.

  1. Belexes Augur

    I have heard from a reliable source it is about 90% caster weps for rogues... then the rest of those things you mention. ;)
    Cadira and I_Love_My_Bandwidth like this.
  2. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

  3. Zolav Elder

    I do not ever recall losing a parse to a monk, maybe Dropfast a few times in my time in Triton.
  4. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    Summing up, I feel Monks should receive some form of headshot/decap/assassinate.
  5. Szilent Augur

    There's always context to observe in the company one keeps, to be sure. Even the worst of these from the past weekends' activities would stand out in many raid forces, but as you can see the monks are doing very fine:

    /GU Combined (9) as: Griklor the Restless boss only in 291s, 4,458.5m @15321165sdps | #2 Monk 222.3m@764.0k sdps | #4 Monk 196.5m@675.4k sdps | #11 Rogue 159.7m@548.7k sdps | #20 Monk 112.8m@387.5k sdps | #29 Monk 72478k@249.1k sdps

    /GU Combined (61) as: ToFS2 no bride/groom in 858s, 9,698.9m @11304058sdps | #5 Monk 399.7m@465.8k sdps | #6 Monk 380.7m@443.7k sdps | #11 Monk 288.5m@336.3k sdps | #19 Rogue 217.0m@253.0k sdps | #32 Monk 138.0m@160.8k sdps

    /GU Combined (21) as: Tserrina Syl`Tor in 798s, 10,883.9m @13638969sdps | #5 Monk 383.4m@480.4k sdps | #6 Monk 360.6m@451.9k sdps | #14 Monk 277.2m@347.4k sdps | #19 Monk 266.9m@334.5k sdps | #18 Rogue 267.6m@335.3k sdps | #30 Rogue 187.7m@235.2k sdps

    /GU Combined (49) as: Derakor the Vindicator in 1051s, 10,313.9m @9813408sdps | #2 Monk 478.7m@455.5k sdps | #3 Monk 474.2m@451.2k sdps | #8 Monk 356.3m@339.0k sdps | #10 Rogue 313.9m@298.7k sdps | #12 Monk 307.1m@292.2k sdps | #18 Rogue 238.8m@227.2k sdps

    /GU Combined (43) as: Icebound Avatar of War in 1125s, 14,330.7m @12738409sdps | #4 Monk 568.9m@505.7k sdps | #5 Monk 549.1m@488.1k sdps | #12 Monk 422.8m@375.9k sdps | #15 Monk 361.3m@321.2k sdps | #13 Rogue 397.1m@353.0k sdps | #27 Rogue 294.0m@261.3k sdps

    /GU Combined (72) as: Narandi the Restless in 1344s, 14,731.7m @10961122sdps | #3 Monk 695.9m@517.8k sdps | #7 Monk 580.7m@432.0k sdps | #13 Rogue 446.7m@332.3k sdps | #15 Rogue 405.5m@301.7k sdps | #18 Monk 369.2m@274.7k sdps

    and some doodling around for achieves-

    /GU Guardian of Doomfire in 80s, 1,830.9m @22886246sdps | #1 Monk 136.2m@1,702.7k sdps | #3 Rogue 91893k@1,148.7k sdps | #7 Monk 80036k@1,000.4k sdps | #9 Rogue 68454k@855.7k sdps | #12 Monk 63572k@794.7k sdps

    /GU Seneschal Radiant Propensity in 262s, 5,185.7m @19792913sdps | #4 Monk 222.2m@847.9k sdps | #5 Monk 220.4m@841.4k sdps | #8 Rogue 176.8m@674.8k sdps | #16 Rogue 137.2m@523.6k sdps | #20 Monk 121.7m@464.7k sdps

    Is the performance you observe notably higher for rogues, such that they'd eclipse these players (of both classes)?
    Skuz likes this.
  6. DaciksBB Augur

    No, monks don't need a kill ability nor should they advocate for one.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare and Duder like this.
  7. Pikollo Augur

    Your argument is very compelling. I no longer wish to have an instakill as other melee classes do.

    On a side note. I imagine this wouldn't be hard to add in. Just change the finishing blow line for monks and rename it.
    Diptera and Ezbro like this.
  8. Zolav Elder

    @Szilent I was speaking from my experience in TBL which I will admit is moot to any discussion now. We had 3 very good monks and I would only compare the ones to myself if they were in the same group in regards to adps.. which in Triton groups were never consistent and all over the place.

    We have one semi-active monk in the guild I am in now and he seems maybe a little rusty as he has gone back and forth to raiding on cleric and monk. He does well but is rarely close BUT I always have a full complement of competent ADPS.

    It has been my experience though that a well played monk is on par with a well played zerker unless its an all out burn 2 min or less when we can use our 25 min big hitting discs.

    But losing to monk.. no, but they were always close.
    Thunderkiks likes this.
  9. Xianzu_Monk_Tunare Augur

    Any instakill added will result in our over all dps being lowered, and the new skill will be extremely niche as far as usage goes. It would be better to advocate for an ability which increases the change for Thunderkick to proc on Wu's more often. Something like an AA line called Master Wu's Thunderous Kicks.
    I_Love_My_Bandwidth likes this.
  10. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    This is not only reasonable, it's also in line with the lore and 'purpose' of the class.
  11. Chasassis New Member

    Genuinely seems like you have no idea how much aDPS Rogues get from weapon procs for their Alliance, which is all it is dependent on.

    Szilent seems to be making the point far more objectively.
  12. Cadira Augur

    Although I didn't consider that at first, after looking at the bonus damage added to appropriate procs while poisonous covenant trigger is on the mob, it would seem the dps increase is fairly small. Maybe it's bigger for rogue's since they have beefier procs, but you gotta consider the majority of procs that take counters off the covenant that are modified by the bonus are probably going to be by non-rogues like tanks and other melee using poisons. Unless your guild is flooded with rogue's.

    Another thing to consider is my quick math of rogue covenant fulmination dps was based off the idea that it's used on cool down and always fulminating. Lots of raid events don't allow for this maximum efficiency to take place.
  13. Baradorn New Member

    Rogues in your guild are either missing something, like ADPS, or are lacking in the skill department.

    Here are some results on parses with similar duration than yours.

    In a GD 1450 sec fight, one rogue did 427 k DPS, he would have ended in your top 10

    In a Derakor 1068 sec fight, two rogues did 436 k and 404 k, that would put maybe both in your top 5 or one being 6th or 7th

    In a AoW 1185 sec fight, two rogues did 526 k and 515 k, that would put both of them in your top 5 parse.

    Here are two fights with slightly longer durations, usually for melees the shorter the parse will be, the higher the DPS will be

    In a Griklor 450 sec fight, a rogue did 650 k , This would likely be higher for a 300 sec fight, like 700 k + ? He would have hit your top 5

    In a Tserina 1066 sec fight, two rogues did 439 k and 437 k. Same thing, probably would have hit 475 k + in a 800 sec fight, and would have landed both in your top 10

    Finally, here is a 691 sec TOFS 2 fight (165 sec faster than yours), a rogue did 653 k, another one did 546 k that would probably make them end both in your top 5 if your fight was 700 sec duration.
  14. Szilent Augur

    Things are definitely different between raid forces.

    You don't mention how the monks you raid with compare to their rogue compatriots or to those I raid with?

    This final entry is clearly wrapping in bane damage. That's silly.
  15. Baradorn New Member

    We don't have any active raiding monk atm.

    The conclusion is that, given optimal situations for both classes, monks and rogues are doing around the same DPS, and can constantly hit the top 5 in DPS parses, unless you have 5 necros :)
  16. Badname3245 New Member

    Monks are very solid but I see people keep subjectively saying top 5 or top 10 potential.

    Necros, zerkers and rogues all handily beat monks all things equal. If the circumstances are right they can also fall behind tanks, druids and wizards. So top 5 or top 10 is only the potential if you don't carry many of those classes or don't carry many good ones.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  17. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    Put equally-geared, progressed, and AA'd Monk, Rogue, and Zerker in same group with Bard, Shaman, and Beastlord and Zerker will be 20% higher DPS than Rogue, and Rogue 10% higher than Monk. Monk 10% higher than Beastlord.

    So if you have 3 melee groups and three Necros in your raid all with Bards and Shaman, your top 10 will be:

    Necro, Necro, Zerker, Zerker, Zerker, Rogue, Rogue, Rogue, Monk, Monk......Right? No, wait, two of the Zerkers died due to early engage and/or rampage and one of the Rogues went AFK to avoid wife aggro. Also, both Necros went AFK several times during raid to paint their kitchen and Warhammer collection, respectively.

    So actual top 10 would be:

    Necro, Necro, Zerker, Rogue, Rogue, Zerker, Zerker, Rogue, Monk, Monk.

    And though this post was partly in jest, the notion that Monks are top 10 potential really only holds true if:

    a) Monk actually makes it into first-chair DPS group with all the aDPS benefits that group affords
    b) Every other DPS class on the raid screws up royally.
    c) If there are more Monks on the raid than Zerkers and Rogues.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare and Ezbro like this.
  18. Maui New Member

    as our guild likes to complain about its all about adps and burn timing. Not everyone makes consistent efforts to maximize their dps output every raid. I get in top 10 right behind necros a lot, (i don't think the first 3-4 necro spots count) a good dps group with stacked epics and all the synergy classes helps the parse a lot.
  19. Aegir Augur

    Not in ToV Era yet. But I've played a Monk on Phinigel since start and we're now embarking on Ring of Scale tonight. So it's basically the whole game within a 4 year span.

    We got awesome surviveability, if not the best among all dedicated melee classes. Palm + Earthforce can save a lot of Zerkers - and Rogues that's suddenly tanking something they shouldn't.

    Not many here are speaking about Purify Body, most other classes i've discussed with about that ability, is the one AA that many other classes would rip their hearts out for.

    If you got your Anguish BP + a raid BP from the lv 75 era, you're basically an inquisitor in a raid for dispelling (I know it doesn't matter much after RoS, but up till then, very very useful).

    Very good endurance management. Imitate death + breather line, can keep you afloat throughout long events and grinds.

    And yes, if you are multiple monks in a raid, work together rotate alliances + Two Finger Wasps. It all adds up.

    Very very fun class and still loving it. And I really don't feel us somewhat lacking behind the other two pure melees. As a matter of fact, Rogues have had a really hard time on TLP's up till like Veil of Alaris/Rain of Fear era - then the three pure melee archetypes starts to even out a bit. Monks has been "up there" basically since Kunark, so I don't mind the winds of change to a well played Zerker or Rogue.
  20. Xianzu_Monk_Tunare Augur

    With the changes to ID over the last year or so, it makes that a lot less viable.

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