Slow vs attack debuff

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Damezza, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. Damezza Augur

    Is slow as important as it once was? Will duo boxes without sham, chanter, or beast suffer because they lack slow?

    Or is Druid a viable support class in a duo box because of their attack debuff?
  2. Tucoh Augur

    No. EQ mobs are "resistant" to slow. I believe slow is 25% effective on most(all?) mobs that can be slowed.

    More info here:
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/shaman-advice-please-slow-stacking.214954/
    http://web.archive.org/web/20040907...alms.com/shaman/showthread.php?threadid=19518

    But I've parsed the top shaman slow (Turgur's Virulent Swarm):
    http://www.raidloot.com/Spells.aspx?name=turgur's

    As reducing mob attack rate by 19%, which is 25% of the stated 75% slow, so it all fits.

    So, slow is significant, but when I box my shaman + warrior, slow is really just one more level of mitigation on top of the warrior's normal abilities rather than a "If a mob isn't slowed in the first few seconds of combat we're all going to die" kind of way that it used to be.

    Yes, but not because of the atk debuff. Druids contribute a lot in a lot of different ways.


    I saw a good breakdown that was like, 15 years old of a druid parsing out a bunch of stuff with and without attack debuffs and the impact was on the same order of a 19% reduction in damage (same as Shaman slow), but I haven't seen anything recently.

    The TLDR is that when a mob swings at you, the damage done is based on the myriad defensive and offensive factors, but a key element is the "Damage Interval" which is based on a 20 sided die. The kicker is that the weights of each side aren't even (like an unloaded die are) but are instead dependent on how much attack the mob has and how much AC you have. If you get struck by a mob a bunch and parse it out you can make a histogram of the result. Below is some parsing I did when striking a mob in my guild hall with three different levels of AC.

    [IMG]

    As you can see, as I increase the AC of the combat dummy, there is a significant change in how much damage I do.

    You can read more about it here:
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/ac-vs-acv2.210028/#post-3078126
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/how-does-damage-mitigation-work.966/

    But you don't really need to understand to know that hitting a mob with a debuff helps you absorb its damage. The game is so complex that slow/atk debuff is just one element to combat, so there's no need to fixate on it too much.
  3. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    I haven't done any detailed analysis of it but the way I see it is that overall the DPS of a mob will be around the same if you slow it or debuff its attack. the difference is that with a slow that damage comes in slightly larger chunks but with less frequency... whereas the attack debuff results in a more steady damage delivery.

    as a shaman it's easier for me to keep a tank alive who is taking bursts of higher damage with low dmg in-between rather than a steady influx of medium dmg with the occasional spike. Chain casting 3 reckless heals + group heals results in a short period where all are down eventually, i'm not sure if druids run into anything similar.

    In any case, as long as your tank is reasonably geared/AAd for the content, you shouldn't have a problem either way you go.
  4. Damezza Augur


    Now what if the target has neither, the Druid attack debuff or slow? I’m curious ranger with a mage for pocket tank will work. Part of me fears that the mage pet will need the support of slow or attack debuff to tank the tough named with merc heals
  5. Tucoh Augur

    The game is so complex that slow/atk debuff is just one element to combat, so there's no need to fixate on it too much

    The ranger has different ways to help tanking and the offensive abilities of the mage. The ranger can, for example, use a slow-procing weapon like their epic:
    http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3637

    The ranger can also help heal the mage pet if they equip heal ToT procing weapons like:
    http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=129385

    More special procs here:
    http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:Items_Special_Procs


    And with the new augs (That will be relatively difficult to get for now) in TBL that add heal ToT procs, the ranger will be even better at healing the mage's pet.

    However, the drui'ds ability to heal the mage pet directly, along with various defensive buffs make it better defensively. The druid is also going to be easier to box and its ADPS contribution for a mage is going to be better.
    I wouldn't personally recommend a rng/mag box because the rng is just a little too hard to box properly, has mana issues and doesn't bring enough to the table as a member of a 2 man group.
    Derka likes this.
  6. NameAlreadyInUse Augur

    I think you should go play more and see for yourself :) Buy a couple of heroic character tokens and try out all the 2-box combinations you are asking about (if you buy a Heroic token, you can delete your toon and reuse the token on another class, so you can try them all).

    Mercenaries alone will literally play the game for you (at a very basic level), and you don't even need to play your toons at all:



    So I think you can make just about any combination of classes work, depending on your definition of "working". As was stated in your other thread, the most robust combination is going to include a tank (SK, probably). You can probably make due with any combination, but you will have to accept that they will be sub-optimum for some situations and you may need to come up with some new strats.
  7. Israfel Elder

    Also worth pointing out that tanks can wear a belt that can slow whatever is hitting them. There are also some other effects-cripple and some DPS options.

    In other words, there is often a way to slow a mob, regardless of group makeup.

    And lastly, don’t forget bards. They can also slow.
    Barton and code-zero like this.
  8. Damezza Augur


    I’m worried that in using a player tank in my duo i will need to main focus the player tank Or can some tanks be box’d/macro’d easier than others?
  9. matouoli Journeyman

    Shaman buff { wulthan focusing } http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=56380
    got :
    *** Increase Max Hitpoints by 5809
    *** Increase STR by 397 ( Increase Str Cap by 397 )
    *** Increase DEX by 397 ( Increase Dex Cap by 397 )
    *** Increase ATK by 164
    *** Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 11%
    *** Spirit of Resilience ( Increase STA by 356 ~ Increase Endurance Pool by 2140 ~Increase Sta Cap by 356 )

    *** Preeminent Foresight ( Increase Chance to Avoid Melee by 11% ).

    do that chance to avoid melee by 11% really help or it is so tiny that it doesn't matter ?
  10. bigpapa Augur

    Turgur's swarm aa ( 9/9 )
    from eqraidloot :
    1: Cast: Turgur's Insects (Highest Rank)
    2: Cast: Turgur's Diminishment IV
    1: Increase Disease Counter by 23
    3: Decrease STR by 321
    4: Decrease AC by 132 ( in game description it say * reduce armor class by 441.)
    5: Decrease DEX by 321
    6: Decrease AGI by 321
    7: Decrease Chance to Dual Wield by 18%

    I got a druid as well in my box setup, but I don't use his debuff usually since I can cast that AA slow in between casts , I usually start with aa malo follow with aa slow,... , but having an aa mean I can cast in between cast np.

    if only playing ( boxing one other toon ) I don't see any issues if it is an easy class to box ( caster ).

    with a caster you only have to click one hotkey to cast 5 things ( or target /assist ) then switch to the other toon, 2box is pretty easy and fast , if you playing a melee toon you will have to place him at attack range tho and click discs, and check here and there if he still be able to hit the mob and ~_~ not having the ** can't see target or oor message **

    playing a caster class, either mage / druid or shaman it I pretty easy, you hit a hotkey then can hit it again or other one every 15 sec or so, it let you some time to switch to the other toon and stay at him a little longer before having to switch again.
  11. AnzoRagespirit Augur

    What's this "slow" everyone is talking about...I think I've seen it on a raid mob or two, but never a group mob...
  12. Fanra Augur

    What I have is here http://everquest.fanra.info/wiki/Spells,_Songs,_Disciplines,_and_AAs#Slow_mitigation

    It's not very good but all I could find.

    As for druid debuffs, you have to land multiple debuffs on the mob and it is really not worth it on group mobs, as by the time you get them to all land, the mob is half or more dead already. For raids, I always put them on the boss mob when I can.

    The other issue for druid debuffs is they are both fire and cold (one fire, two cold) so if the mob resists one of them then you can't get them all to land.

    Again, they are ok for raid bosses and a waste of time on anything else. Someone who knows more about it can chime in, as I'm not one of those who parses and studies stuff, I just play.
    Barton and NameAlreadyInUse like this.
  13. NameAlreadyInUse Augur

    Generally speaking, I believe all slows and attack debuffs are wasted effort if your tank isn't at risk of dying (more damage is the better choice). This is one reason I am such a strong proponent of a strong (player) tank.

    I cast the druid's AA debuffs, even in the group game, since they can be cast as part of your spell gem/global cooldown spam (no opportunity cost).

    Druid attack debuff spells are a little tricky, since they also lower resistance (to fire and cold), meaning that they also increase damage (ADPS). But I agree that the spell/dot versions are not worth casting on group content, other than maybe a tough named (and then, only in a slow-killing group). Raid mobs, certainly, but only if they live long enough to make it worthwhile.
    Brohg likes this.
  14. bigpapa Augur

    when it is a fast cast and recast AA you can cast in between casts easy ;)
    NameAlreadyInUse likes this.
  15. Tatanka Augur

    I use it for pulling (I molo, so, yes, a druid who pulls). It's an AA, so I don't have to worry about spell gem refresh, and it's not really taking away from DPS time, since I have to wait for the tank merc to get agro. The only thing I don't like about the AA debuff is, since they changed it to just be the AA version of the highest rank spell you've scribed (as opposed to being its own separate spell), it now eats GoM procs. But I do use it on every mob I kill.
  16. NameAlreadyInUse Augur

    This has beneficial side-effect of giving us a fast-recast remote heal spell that we can spam on global cooldown. Big win!
    Wulfhere likes this.
  17. josh Augur



    I would argue that nothing is so tiny that it doesn't matter. all the small things in this game add up to big things. that is a rather small thing, much smaller than slow, but, depending on your avoidance ac, your level of combat agility etc, etc. that could increase your actual chance to avoid melee by maybe 1% or so. it will be more effective against raid mobs than it will be against group mobs, since raid mobs have lower accuracy than group mobs.
  18. Tatanka Augur

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Well, I'm embarrassed to say, I never thought of that! Hehe, little tanky-merc just got easier to keep alive ;)
    NameAlreadyInUse likes this.
  19. Mehdisin Mahn Augur


    Shaman slow comes with the benefit of a decent DoT that's mana-free + other debuffs and/or potentially a small HoT (if you're using counterbias, which a lot of us don't bother with). If you don't have a mezzer, then languid bite is money.... not having it turned on and/or not slowing is a straight up waste of dps.
    Tucoh likes this.
  20. Fanra Augur

    Actually, the AA is only one of our three debuffs, and you need to use all three to get the full effect. For level 110, it is:
    • Gaze of Ro (cast using AA Blessing of Ro)
    • Glistening Frost
    • Frostreave Breath
    Those three, plus Skin to Sumac, are what I cast on raid bosses. Note that to do this requires three spell slots (when you include Skin to Sumac).

    So if you don't count Skin to Sumac, since it is technically not a "debuff", it still takes one AA and two spell casts to not even equal slow.

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