Not A Bug Slay Undead Proc rate broken

Discussion in 'Resolved' started by Tutankamen, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. Tutankamen Augur

    I've noticed that the proc rate of Slay undead has either been significantly reduced to the point of almost being worthless, or it's broken in the new expansion. This new expac is full of undead, yet slay *never procs.

    I didn't see anything in the patch notes about a massive nerf to Paladins... is there something broken?

    Please comment on this, as I'm not the only Paladin talking about this.

    Aside from that, overall the expansion is really cool.

    Wulfhere likes this.
  2. Ratalthor Developer

    Is this issue still affecting anybody?
  3. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    I don't think it was broken. Slay rate was nerfed like several YEARS before this, looked to be on accident, but dzarn looked at it during ToV beta and found where it was nerfed, but no reason why (why I say it was probably accidental). That is likely the only reason we had the new rank of slay undead in ToV, to correct the slay rate.

    I am not aware of complaints about slay being broken with ToV release.

    But after I'm done working on bind wound today, I'll hit a dummy and see if it isn't functioning properly, but I really doubt it is bugged.
    Sancus likes this.
  4. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Not a super long parse, almost an hour, but 392/5971 slay/hit for 6.565%

    Supposed to be 6% chance at rank 16, so definitely doesn't look bugged. Looks safe to close this one.
  5. Wulfhere Augur

    The Slay Undead ability granted by Holyforge has been broken for even longer. Without any Combat Fury AA it fires, on average, between 0 and 4 special hits (Critical, Crippling Blow, Slay Undead) for its 5 minutes duration.
  6. Zealot1340 Journeyman

    Ya slay undead seems fine. Holyforge discipline is useless.
  7. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    I know that's how you keep reading the data, based on the prior thread, but its simply just not correct.

    The ONLY reason there is ANY slay line on holyforge was because about 14-15 years ago or whatever, we pointed out that against undead our dps went DOWN when we clicked holyforge because crippling blows checked before slay undead, and we lost out on slays. So they added the line in to make up for it.

    It was not intended for people that didn't have slay undead to be able to slay. It is just a quirk of the way the programming is, the same way casters and priests could melee crit with a cleave item before they ever had the aa for it, and they would just keep critting for (0) or (1).

    Holyforge isn't meant to add slay to those without it, it just had a line added to make it worth clicking again once you trained slay undead when fighting against undead.

    But the comment about critical and crippling blows of 0, is this something new? I don't recall talking about this in the last thread? (but I am probably going senile too, so...)
  8. Wulfhere Augur

    Sorry, false assumption.

    I've been parsing it on TLP for the past few months. It's given in Velious before any AA. It fires 0 to 4 times total, and I mean crit or cripple or slay too, on average during Velious. Holyforge is broken and meaningless. Even in Luclin with CF3 and SU3 it's hardly noticeable.
  9. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    It is from Kunark. It didn't have slay undead on it at all until several years after slay undead aa came out in Luclin.

    The rate for slay undead 3 is tiny, especially after they nerfed all ranks of slay downward. Slay undead 3 originally had about a 1.5% proc rate with combat fury maxed (level 3 at the time). Expecting the small slay modifier to make it noticeable, especially under one click of the disc is unreasonable.

    The slay line was added on 12/15/2004, 3 months after omens of war came out. We already have slay undead 6 at by then with even higher proc rates, which was why we were losing dps from lost slays.

    From my own posts back in 2009:

    The change to slay was to make it a "toggle" on ability, where, when active, we'd take a lot more damage (I think it was 25%? something like that), and when it was off, we'd tank like normal but could not perform a slay cleanse. I know all this intimately, because I was the one that originally laid out the solution that sony ended up taking. Iustus and Galidin threw their support behind that idea, as well as a lot of lesser known paladins, and its what they ended up doing.

    Basically, slay was argued to be too powerful in the upcoming PoP expansion because of two factors:

    1) Far too many undead in PoP (which most of us considered bogus after the expansion came out), and
    2) The new alternate advancement ability: Fury of the Ages

    Fury of the Ages was later turned into "Combat Fury" ranks 4-6 when aa tabs were consolidated. Basically, more crits = more slays so that was a problem.

    The solution that was enacted, was that our chance to slay was DECREASED when you purchased those aa. A concommittent scaling where the slay/hit ratio stayed the same, while the crit/slay ratio increased.

    That was the first big change to slay.

    Then we had the issue with cleave when it was introduced. Cleave meant more slays, and so the introduction of this focus in Gates of Discord caused an issue. The issue came to the fore very quickly when cleave was broken (instead of a 40% increase in crits, it was 140% increase) and paladins with the Tipt bracer were slaying like mad.

    The cleave effect was fixed, and months later, slay was changed completely from a modified critical hit, into a separate check. This means that we no longer lost crits to slays, and slay frequency no longer increased with higher crit rates. It also "broke" holyforge, in the sense of it no longer affected slays, which led to its revamp in December 2004 where the the "Slay Undead (140)" line was added.

    It is interesting that the line was 140, when it had been known for years that HF only increased our crit/slay rate by 140% instead of the 200% show in the data, not sure if that was just a coincidence or not. You can still find the threads on the original paladins of norrath forums, including posts by Brenlo and Ashlanne about some of the issues around this time.

    My point is, if you don't have any slay, you shouldn't be getting squat from HF for slay undead.

    If you don't have combat fury, you SHOULD be getting almost no crits or crips at all. Going an entire holyforge with 0 crippling blows was not abnormal back in 2000 at all. 0 crits though would be very unlikely.

    That's why I was asking about the damage, if you're talking about the frequency being 0-4, then that is definitely not a bug (for slay/crips). If the damage is abnormal, then that is a bug, as we used the same crit/crip formula warriors had for damage prior to aa existing.

    Here is the original thread we talked about this, looked it up:

    Here are some relevant/interesting history:

    A lot of old stuff, but gives a lot of context.

    I guess what this really comes down to, can you provide a parse with no CF3, no Slay undead, under holyforge, and give about an hour or two worth of time and give the %s?
    niente likes this.
  10. Wulfhere Augur

    Right, TLP granted Holyforge in Kunark these days (before Velious). It was a net negative to use it (opportunity cost) so I forget I even had it in Kunark.

    All the history doesn't change the current situation that Holyforge is broken now, for 2 expansions worth of TLP. For the all important TLP players. All Holyforge effectively does is drain 400 endurance over 5 minutes, providing almost ZERO benefit, during the expansions where it is most relevant.

    I posted in the older thread, at the time, to Niente where I thought the bug might be. Apparently nothing has been done about it as yet. We have a relatively new developer (in Ratalthor) who's showing some interest in the topic, and the context helps him/her more then us. I believe it deserves to be fixed because it matters to TLP players. Paladin is a shunned class on TLP, in part because of this problem.
  11. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    ,Ok, then we need the parse showing it. I read through this thread, that thread, and others, and others and I don't see any parse showing the crit/crip frequencies posted with or without CF3 under holyforge. Its just anecdotes atm.
  12. Wulfhere Augur

    Then make your own parses if you're so invested in your sunk cost argument. In this case, you are the one blowing historical smoke that matters not to TLP players.
  13. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    You're the one claiming something is bugged. You have provided zero actual data. Its not my job to prove your supposition.

    Might as well talk about jboots being slower at this point if you're unwilling to provide the information showing something is bugged.
  14. Wulfhere Augur

    Dug through my logs. These are the best results for Holyforge in Kunark and Velious (no AA at all). Meaning I got at least one affected hit. About half of the times I activated Holyforge there were no affected hits at all and it cost about 40% of total endurance.

    You -vs- A dracoliche: -- DMG: 3615 -- DPS: 15 -- Scaled: 15 -- Slash: 2749 -- DirDmg: 716 -- Bash: 87 -- Environmental: 63 -- % dmg as normal: 97.8% -- % dmg as critical: 2.2% -- Non-crit rate: 98.7% -- crit rate: 1.3% -- Attempts: 132 -- Hits: 75 -- Missed: 50 -- Defended: 7 -- Accuracy: 60% -- Avg Hit: 48 -- Max hit: 174 -- DMG to PC: 3030

    [Sat Oct 17 21:05:56 2020] You slash a dracoliche for 81 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sat Oct 17 21:06:46 2020] You slash a dracoliche for 24 points of damage. (Slay Undead)

    You -vs- Verix Kylox`s remains: -- DMG: 17439 -- DPS: 44 -- Scaled: 44 -- Slash: 13390 -- DirDmg: 1630 -- Bash: 1231 -- Environmental: 1188 -- % dmg as normal: 92.5% -- % dmg as critical: 6.3% -- Non-crit rate: 98.1% -- crit rate: 1.6% -- crippling rate: 0.4% -- Attempts: 339 -- Hits: 258 -- Missed: 74 -- Defended: 7 -- Accuracy: 77.7% -- Avg Hit: 67 -- Max hit: 401 -- DMG to PC: 12602

    [Fri Oct 30 18:17:31 2020] You bash Verix Kylox`s remains for 204 points of damage. (Crippling Blow)
    [Fri Oct 30 18:17:46 2020] You slash Verix Kylox`s remains for 401 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Fri Oct 30 18:18:39 2020] You slash Verix Kylox`s remains for 215 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Fri Oct 30 18:19:13 2020] You slash Verix Kylox`s remains for 304 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Fri Oct 30 18:21:25 2020] You slash Verix Kylox`s remains for 180 points of damage. (Critical)

    You -vs- Combined: Tortured Wraith (3): -- DMG: 12290 -- DPS: 64 -- Scaled: 60 -- Slash: 7700 -- DirDmg: 4027 -- Environmental: 324 -- Bash: 239 -- % dmg as normal: 97.4% -- % dmg as critical: 2.6% -- Non-crit rate: 98.3% -- crit rate: 1.7% -- Attempts: 168 -- Hits: 118 -- Missed: 44 -- Defended: 6 -- Accuracy: 72.8% -- Avg Hit: 104 -- Max hit: 333 -- DMG to PC: 5316

    [Sun Nov 01 14:04:41 2020] You slash Tortured Wraith for 215 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sun Nov 01 14:06:38 2020] You slash Tortured Wraith for 106 points of damage. (Critical)

    You -vs- Combined: Drusella Sathir (2): -- DMG: 8050 -- DPS: 23 -- Scaled: 20 -- Slash: 6741 -- DirDmg: 989 -- Bash: 248 -- Environmental: 72 -- % dmg as normal: 99.2% -- % dmg as critical: 0.8% -- Non-crit rate: 99.4% -- crit rate: 0.6% -- Attempts: 241 -- Hits: 162 -- Missed: 76 -- Defended: 3 -- Accuracy: 68.1% -- Avg Hit: 49 -- Max hit: 200 -- DMG to PC: 4714

    [Sun Nov 01 16:10:22 2020] You slash Drusella Sathir for 64 points of damage. (Critical)

    You -vs- Silverwing: -- DMG: 2889 -- DPS: 16 -- Scaled: 15 -- Slash: 2767 -- DirDmg: 66 -- Bash: 56 -- % dmg as normal: 90.1% -- % dmg as critical: 9.9% -- Non-crit rate: 94.2% -- crit rate: 5.8% -- Attempts: 101 -- Hits: 69 -- Missed: 26 -- Defended: 6 -- Accuracy: 72.6% -- Avg Hit: 41 -- Max hit: 125 -- DMG to PC: 1575

    [Mon Nov 02 20:39:03 2020] You slash Silverwing for 74 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Mon Nov 02 20:39:23 2020] You slash Silverwing for 64 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Mon Nov 02 20:39:56 2020] You bash Silverwing for 33 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Mon Nov 02 20:40:14 2020] You slash Silverwing for 116 points of damage. (Critical)

    You -vs- Combined: A drolvarg sentry (3), Combined: Skeletal guardian (2), Combined: Skeletal lookout (1), Combined: Spectral caller (1): -- DMG: 25301 -- DPS: 48 -- Scaled: 48 -- Slash: 18335 -- DirDmg: 4338 -- Bash: 1593 -- Environmental: 1035 -- % dmg as normal: 98% -- % dmg as critical: 0.8% -- Non-crit rate: 99.3% -- crit rate: 0.4% -- crippling rate: 0.4% -- Attempts: 368 -- Hits: 285 -- Missed: 67 -- Defended: 16 -- Accuracy: 81% -- Avg Hit: 88 -- Max hit: 333 -- DMG to PC: 4588

    [Sat Nov 07 14:37:51 2020] You slash a drolvarg sentry for 193 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sat Nov 07 14:42:33 2020] You slash spectral caller for 301 points of damage. (Crippling Blow)

    You -vs- Combined: A drolvarg sentry (2), Combined: A drolvarg captain (1): -- DMG: 13188 -- DPS: 58 -- Scaled: 52 -- Slash: 10116 -- DirDmg: 2035 -- Bash: 524 -- Environmental: 513 -- % dmg as normal: 95.5% -- % dmg as critical: 4.5% -- Non-crit rate: 98.7% -- crit rate: 1.3% -- Attempts: 197 -- Hits: 149 -- Missed: 44 -- Defended: 4 -- Accuracy: 77.2% -- Avg Hit: 88 -- Max hit: 404 -- DMG to PC: 2819

    [Sun Nov 08 13:32:22 2020] You slash a drolvarg captain for 193 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sun Nov 08 13:35:30 2020] You slash a drolvarg sentry for 404 points of damage. (Critical)

    You -vs- Dozekar the Cursed: -- DMG: 11996 -- DPS: 32 -- Scaled: 29 -- Slash: 10834 -- DirDmg: 723 -- Bash: 430 -- Environmental: 9 -- Shoot: 0 -- Crush: 0 -- % dmg as normal: 97.2% -- % dmg as critical: 2.8% -- Non-crit rate: 97.9% -- crit rate: 2.1% -- Attempts: 245 -- Hits: 141 -- Missed: 100 -- Defended: 4 -- Accuracy: 58.5% -- Avg Hit: 85 -- Max hit: 189 -- DMG to PC: 12619

    [Sun Nov 15 20:13:07 2020] You slash Dozekar the Cursed for 75 points of damage (Critical)
    [Sun Nov 15 20:13:47 2020] You slash Dozekar the Cursed for 163 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sun Nov 15 20:13:49 2020] You slash Dozekar the Cursed for 95 points of damage. (Critical)

    You -vs- The Avatar of War: -- DMG: 9323 -- DPS: 25 -- Scaled: 19 -- Slash: 8066 -- DirDmg: 930 -- Bash: 327 -- % dmg as normal: 97% -- % dmg as critical: 3% -- Non-crit rate: 98.4% -- crit rate: 1.6% -- Attempts: 284 -- Hits: 192 -- Missed: 90 -- Defended: 2 -- Accuracy: 68.1% -- Avg Hit: 48 -- Max hit: 140 -- DMG to PC: 0

    [Fri Nov 20 23:01:09 2020] You slash The Avatar of War for 75 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Fri Nov 20 23:02:19 2020] You slash The Avatar of War for 75 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Fri Nov 20 23:03:48 2020] You slash The Avatar of War for 134 points of damage. (Critical)

    You -vs- A dracoliche: -- DMG: 15383 -- DPS: 50 -- Scaled: 48 -- Slash: 13640 -- DirDmg: 848 -- Bash: 831 -- Environmental: 64 -- % dmg as normal: 90.6% -- % dmg as critical: 8.1% -- Non-crit rate: 96.5% -- crit rate: 2.9% -- crippling rate: 0.6% -- Attempts: 268 -- Hits: 173 -- Missed: 92 -- Defended: 3 -- Accuracy: 65.3% -- Avg Hit: 88 -- Max hit: 326 -- DMG to PC: 2112

    [Sat Nov 28 22:29:09 2020] You slash a dracoliche for 257 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sat Nov 28 22:29:38 2020] You slash a dracoliche for 294 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sat Nov 28 22:30:26 2020] You slash a dracoliche for 75 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sat Nov 28 22:30:32 2020] You slash a dracoliche for 295 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sat Nov 28 22:30:58 2020] You slash a dracoliche for 326 points of damage. (Critical)
    [Sat Nov 28 22:31:01 2020] You bash a dracoliche for 194 points of damage. (Crippling Blow)

    I've previously posted (and linked in this thread) what I think is broken based on what Niente posted about critical hit formula. Please take a look at it again Devs.

    Holyforge Discipline

    Paladin (55)

    Slot 1: SPA 169 - Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 200%
    Slot 2: SPA 171 - Increase Chance to Crippling Blow by 20%
    Slot 3: SPA 219 - Increase Chance to Slay Undead by 1.4% with 1700% Base Damage Mod

    SPA 169 - Critical Melee (PC Only)
    SPA 171 - Crippling Blow
    SPA 219 - Slay Undead
    SPA 330 - Critical Melee Damage Mod
    SPA 496 - Critical Melee Damage Mod Max

    Here is Niente's reference post for critical hits

    According to Niente, the calculation should produce an increased damage hit even if it's a SPA 219 (Slay Undead) success.
    • Slay Undead min hit should be (1 + 5) * 17.0 = 102 damage. This is clearly not working (as Yepmetoo says)
    • Critical success should produce a min hit of (1 + 5) * 1.7 = 10 damage
    • Crippling success should produce a min hit of ((1 + 5) * 1.7) * 1.19 = 12 damage
    Something is broken with the conditional logic that excludes paladins running Holyforge from accessing the SPA 219 ability.

    The 200% chance mod is far too low to help a baseline paladin. It's like a warrior clicking Defensive and all that happens is that 1% of hits are mitigated and they are out 40% of their endurance.

    I see the scaling problem as paladins gain AA to increase their chances. However, paladins are so far behind in DPS at level 115 that I think it would be easy to justify increasing that chance to 1000% or even higher (test it). Holyforge will not become overpowered.

    Another option is to replace SPA 169 and 171 with a straight SPA 185 damage mod. This approach would provide consistent damage for the 5 minute duration on every hit. Compare to warrior Aggressive Discipline.
  15. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    I don't see anything in your parses you posted that shows anything wrong. I believe you are making incorrect assumptions on the formulas (what you linked was not formulas but merely illustrative descriptions of checks with a few numbers in spots). For example, take this:

    Elidroth wrote:

    "Yeah.. so the coder that looked at the Slay code with me came to me this morning with a correction to his numbers..

    The chance is Effect 1 / 10000 to do base damage * Effect 2.

    For Slay 9, that works out to a 515/10000 chance to do base*2300/100. FYI.. we have to divide most numbers by 100 because nearly everything in EQ was originally developed using Integer variable definitions.

    Or more accurately, 5.15% chance to do Base Damage*23

    Effect 1 is chance (which for holyforge once the line added would be 140, or 1.4% chance) and base damage is your normal damage roll. There is not a special calculation for slay undead like there is for crits, it is simply a modifier to the normal damage hit. That is why it was so easy to figure out (pre heroics muddying the waters) the formula, whereas the crit formula was a nightmare. Also, their use of truncation causes issues too.

    I guess my point is, why are you putting "1+5" anywhere?

    This would be a lot easier to figure out if they hadn't changed how the report damage last year.

    Rereading through some old stuff, found this regarding the addition of the slay line to HF:

    I actually found the old PoN forums, but it looks like they somehow had every post with a "last post date" between late april 2004 and mid november 2004 deleted.

    So I couldn't find the thread where me and caladel posted our holyforge numbers for the prior year+ (was in august 2004 we posted them, maybe july), but we both saw the same drop in slays while using HF, which is how we knew that slay was modified to not work on crits at all. Devs later confirmed this.

    I did find this gem though: ... ndead.html

    Note the initial post from Ashlanne:

    "Hello Paladins,
    I have news about Holyforge!! Holyforge was not working properly due to a change that was made to the Slay Undead AA.

    Holyforge was not corrected to work with Slay Undead when this change was made. This issue has been corrected and will go live in the 12/15 update. Holyforge will now increase your chance to slay undead, and if you the Slay Undead AA you will have an even greater chance of a slay with Holyforge.
    Ashlanne Barefoot
    Sony Online Entertainment"

    I'm running a parse right now just to confirm if HF actually adds to slay undead chance anymore (on live player with max slay).
  16. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Looks like the 1.4% SPA 219 adds directly to the slay 16 aa 6%, small parse but definitely showing it working:

    Duration - 42:42
    slash 8437 all slash 8437
    slash/slay 640 all bash 979
    bash 979 total 9416
    bash/slay 72
    slash/crit 3172
    bash/crit 366 slay% 7.56%
    slash/crip 1718 crit% 37.57%
    bash/crip 204 crip% 20.41%

    Running a test right now naked with a 10 dmg 2her, to test a couple things. Then will pop HF and see how it affects things.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    I'm giving more weight to what Niente said 2 years ago over 17 year old historical facts (I was there for that discussion too). Those facts are how we got here, but let's move forward with an improvement for TLP paladins.

    Plugging numbers into Niente's checks. I used 1 as the minimum successful hit value to illustrate the point that a true HF slay could not be less then 102 damage if it was working. We both agree it's not.

    Looking forward to that result. Thanks.
  18. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    There is too much noise on a 115 paladin with all relevant aa.

    I went naked, 0 to all heroics, clicked off 2h proficiency etc, using a 10 dmg 41 dly 2h weapon, 149 damage bonus. Does bash still function as 25 dmg/60 delay weapon for calculations? I assume so. Only things "on":

    Combat fury 8: 160% crit chance
    weapon mastery 32: 65% to base damage and 5000 damage bonus (41 delay should be 5000 dmg, it scales with delay) - unsure if this affects bash
    veterans wrath 33: 235% to crit damage
    Improved holyblade 19: 85% to ALL damage
    slay 19: 3600% damage modifier
    improved bash 67 (not done cov ranks): 7200 damage bonus

    slash crit slay bash
    min 11733 11815 12486 7516
    max 11983 12706 19290 8421

    Bash sample way too small to get reliable min/max values, but highest slay bash was 31368.

    All those damage bonuses and modifiers greatly narrow the range on damage down.

    Maybe someone with more time than me can use those to figure something out. Running the same parse with HF next.

    Running that parse now, will be at least an hour, but I can definitely say after first 5 minutes that min/max slay hasn't changed at all for damage, so 219 SPA is just the highest.
  19. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    From the first test above with 0 heroics, naked, no buffs:

    Duration - 45:53
    slash 2903 all slash 2903
    slash/slay 158 all bash 440
    bash 440 total 3343
    bash/slay 27
    slash/crit 184
    bash/crit 29 slay% 5.53%
    slash/crip 0 crit% 6.37%
    bash/crip 0 crip%

    With holyforge:

    Duration - 39:06
    slash 2550 all slash 2550
    slash/slay 209 all bash 388
    bash 388 total 2938
    bash/slay 34
    slash/crit 144
    bash/crit 33 slay% 8.27%
    slash/crip 91 crit% 6.02%
    bash/crip 15 crip% 3.61%
  20. Xanadas Augur

    Should take a step back and look at Holyforge disc and really evaluate how useful/useless this disc is. A disc that might produce enough crits to add 600-700 damage (currently in Luclin era on Rizlona) over what, 3 minutes or however long it lasts?

    Having played a Paladin my entire EQ life, Holyforge has always been one of those WTH things in Everquest. It adds the chance to crit and cripple, but at rates that don't even move the needle, and it increases slay rates slightly - again barely enough to warrant the name "discipline". Meanwhile, monks get things like Innerflame and Speed that shoot their damage through the roof.

    I just don't get it......
    Wulfhere likes this.

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