Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Zantor, Jul 1, 2014.
Eliz the paladins you play with must be really bad if SKs can out DPS them on a burn.
I love how people throw insults without any numbers or facts. If paladins are out burning sks in your guild constantly, then you have amazing paladins or bad sks. From the sounds of it, most likely a combination of both. Please, link these parses of you have. Oh wait. They don't exist.
With 7th up or vs. undead Pally's are a good 20%+ over SK's on a burn. Without it, they are usually fairly close (within 10% either way).
Bigger point is DPS for tanks in either case is nearly irrelevant in a raid environment as knights are putting up numbers in the 45-75k range and DPS toons are doing 200-500k+ depending on the event. Few guilds are ever going to say anything or even care if a knight turns on auto attack and hits a disc or two to put up numbers in the 20's as that's not even the difference in how much DPS toons will vary based on the RNG.
DPS really is not an issue at all, though from an epeen perspective it's nice to at least be close.
The real issues are aggro generation and needing either a mitigation or self healing boost.
Not useful on raids?? SKs are tanks. You picked an SK to tank stuff. Here is a list of raids from COTF that have adds that need to be tanked:
Tower of Rot
That is 100% of the COTF raids.
I'd even suggest SKs are the premier add tank as well, because Warriors are never going to use all their defensive abilities on adds if they are in the tank line up for the main boss, and Paladins are too important as splashers to lose them to tanking adds. So there you go, we found your raid role.
Thanks for making our point!
Again "SK's can do X because the other classes have more important roles." Doing something because everyone else is "busy", be it kiting or off-tanking doesn't make us "premier" it makes us "fill-in".
As you just made perfectly clear Warriors and Paladins can do things more important than even off-tanking on raids. Guess what, if you remove all the SK's from all the raids you listed above those same warriors and paladins could also fill the off-tank roles better as well with better aggro generation tools and superior mitigation(war) or self-healing(pal).
Thus exactly the point of the thread.
So you admit to having a raid role, you just don't like it. Change classes then. Controlling adds is probably the most important thing to a raid today next to controlling emotes, and its SKs job to do it. It's comforting to know that while the guild wipes to uncontrolled adds, SKs are more concerned with their DPS.
As Shiftie said, these topics/ideas are usually just way for solo and group SKs to get more power under the guise of raid utility or "usefulness".
Point missed but clearly you have some sort of SK axe to grind.
All we are asking for is equal aggro tools as the other tanks and equal ability to stay alive, neither of which we have now. As stated which you chose to ignore Pal and War can fulfill the off-tank role better ON TOP OF having other uses. While we definitely would like to have another use to match the other tank classes, not having the same strength of aggro tools or ability to stay alive is pretty large issue.
Being a rogue you should get this as being a DPS class that was until recently way behind the other classes, you most definitely had a "role" as DPS, but it sucked filling that role because you were so far behind other DPS classes. Was the solution to switch to a zerker? You would think that logic would be crystal clear as your class just came out of the same situation.
Who cares about Knight DPS, we are tanks not DPS. That is like DPS classes worrying about how much AC they have, who cares lol. But like last night on Bixie one when we OT'd the adds, about about 20 secs, all adds ran from knights and went to the warriors and was nothing we could do to get the aggro back. Even pally healing aggro was useless. Before SK's had that problem with Pally healing aggro now the new warrior aggro out does them, But they still need pallies in raids for patch healing, splashes and such, what else does a SK have to do, my RL said about how only thing a SK is good for anymore is kiting. And when SK's can lose aggro at will to a pally or especially a warrior now, he is about right.
Increase agro absolutely, it shouldn't even be a battle, an SK on a mob should be able to easily hold agro from a warrior and paladin not even on that mob (unless 1 time ae taunt, but should quickly get it back). But that's a lot different than asking for some of the ridiculous things that have been asked for in this thread, such as SKs should have no rez effects, lol.
If a War uses either wade into battle or their new hate mod ability we cannot keep agro over them, and it makes kiting useless. They are getting to where they really have to watch what abilities they are using or they can wipe the raid.
Good advice for any class, really
Yup, our warriors not really like the new aggro, has killed them several times now getting overwhelmed with adds and they remind each other to be careful with it.
Pretty much states it perfectly. All 3 tank classes can tank, but 2 of the tank classes excel at something specifically. Would be great to have an area we too can excel in
It's better to recruit more paladins and warriors for this job. I don't understand at all how shadowknights are "the premier add tank," aside from everyone else (who would be more suitable) has more important things on their plate. It'd be better, I suggest, to just recruit more paladins and warriors.
Here's the thing:
Warriors are the best raid tanks.
Paladins and Shadowknights are equalish secondary and add tanks. Paladins have significantly more single-target aggro, but Shadowknights might have a small edge in AE ability.
Paladins are fantastic at other essential raid functions (e.g., healing, curing, splashing).
If the choice is one class that can do 2X, one class that can do X, or one class that can do X+Y, where X=X, give me the classes that do 2X and X+Y every time - I'd love to have zero of class with only ability X. That's the issue of shadowknights on raids.
I agree for any class, but it is a new thing to wars
That is the real issue here, SHD can fill in for many roles, but not as well as another class might.
Can tank raid bosses, but so can a WAR/PAL/pet, and then they can offer better tanking/splash and backup heals/dps as well respectively.
Can tank trash, but only because the WAR/PAL are busy doing other things, same goes for kiting really, although I would say SHD might have an edge in survival here.
Can pull if the bard/monk are too busy/incompetent, but usually people make those classes to do that job. Also, trash clearing really isn't much of a thing in the raids nowadays, save the dragon related raids in T0/T1 RoF maybe.
Can help getting corpses mid-event out of weird places, if the rogues/monks are too busy. Granted I found lava diving in Zalikor a great activity while I wasn't tanking.
Can lead raids, but so can any other class, that is entirely about the person, not the class, lol.
And there are other examples, but the real issue is that there isn't a situation where you think, if only we had a few SHD here, this event would be so much easier. The only good part about this for any guild is because SHD don't have any tada ability, the requirements to get into raiding as one are much higher than for say paladin or warrior. Warrior, can you kind of follow a tank line up, and get hit like a boss? You're in! Paladin, can you tank okay half the time and splash with some amount of timing? You're in! Overly simplified for PAL/WAR, I'll admit, but the bar is much lower for them in my opinion.
Something special only a SHD can bring to a raid would be fantastic, as great as filling in for other classes when they are too busy can be. What that something should be though, that is the problem...
The problem you seem to be describing is the whole of existence for every dps class, and the solution you seem to be asking for is what in economics would be called rent-seeking behavior, which isn't healthy. The ideal being sought is for recruits not to be desirable just because the character they chose in approximately random fashion a year or ten+ years in the past has the magic icecream dispensing button, but because they're good players.
If savvy people say to you "hey, could you play your alt today" or "hey, could you MAKE an alt today" then there's a problem, but I don't think that's happening. I sure haven't seen it happen, not to good players, not without a crazy imbalanced roster/attendance issue going on.
While I agree that skill should play a major part of why you are accepted into a group or guild, that is not and should not be the theme of this discussion.
What should be focused on is what can be given to SHD as good raid utility without making them too outrageous in the group game. They hollowed out their melee leeching ability plenty lately, should be plenty of room for something new in raids now...
I do track parses we keep a DPS club thread running on our forums showing highest burns by each person to motivate people to move up.
Knights are usually busy doing other things which limits their chances to burn but our good paladins are 10-20K ahead of our good SKs.
That all said who cares. If they suddenly made it so SKs could do 80K DPS on a burn still would not really want more in raid as that is below a DPS class and being the DPS star is not a tanks job.
IDotPeople said it right. There is no role in a raid where anybody goes geez we need an SK to do that.
We get stuck kiting because we do have non damage agro spells and there is no need for us to be near the raid. Kiting is not a reason to have SKs. If I had extra paladins or warriors they could do it. Hell with their new AE agro they might excel over SKs as mobs popping at the raid might go after them.
DPS always matters, no matter who or where it comes from. Understanding that is the difference between the good players and good guilds. If you have paladins that are consistently out burning your sks by 20k that is a skill gap thing. If you track parses then you'd understand that's easy to see. I'm all for sks getting help but not based off of false claims on warriors and paladins. Half of this thread sounds like mediocre sks being compared to wars and paladins that know how to play and asking devs for compensation due to it.
Separate names with a comma.