SK Nurf

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Jono Bean, Apr 18, 2020.

  1. Tappin Augur

    I box an SK, and use melee and caster burns. I don’t use dots, besides the tap. I am not sure about you, but this change doesn’t encourage me to use more dots, and I will probably remove the tap one. I would agree this feels more like a nerf than anything else. And why was the change needed anyways? I have never seen a raid SK load the boss up on dots - the exact situation this is supposed to fix.
  2. shade New Member

    Thanks for suggestions.

    I do have taps loaded and use them as needed to heal myself but for the most part don't use them as damage spells. Is that not a pretty inefficient use of mana?

    DoT vs Taps
    I had always thought the best way to manage mana was to look at the Dam to Mana ratios.
    If you look at the DoT vs Taps, it's not even close:

    Blood of Drakus (lvl 107. 6496 dam x 6 tics = 38976 dam for 6654 mana = 5.85 dam/mana).
    Duplicitous Blight (lvl 109. 6026 dam x 9 tics = 54234 dam for 5141 mana = 10.5 dam/mana)
    vs
    Touch of T'Vern (lvl 110. 5885 dam x 1 = 5885 for 1192 mana = 2.9 dam/mana)
    Touch of Hemofax (lvl 110. 4271 dam x 1 = 4271 for 1120 mana = 3.5 dam/mana)
    Dire Testimony (lvl 110. 10749 dam x 1 = 10749 for 3988 dam = 2.7 dam/mana)

    Spears:
    I did look at spears, which I don't currently use much.
    If I cast the 109 spear 3 times, both the damage done and the mana cost is very similar to what the 107 Blood DoT would do and cost, so off the top of my head don't see that as an improvement (besides pushing more buttons so I feel like I am doing something). I'm not taking into effect crits, which might fire more or for larger amounts for a spear? I'm not sure. I have all my DoT crit AA's, probably not my spear AA's (can't remember which exactly would cover that) - so I'm not sure how AA's will affect DoT's vs spears and if that makes one or the other more attractive.


    I am not trying to be argumentative and
    I absolutely do want to take advice.
    I'm just trying to think this through and figure out how to adjust my playstyle.

    Since I play with an enchanter, I tend to mez and fight one at a time.
    Using more taps, I could fight more mobs at a time (like a real SK).
    But then I'll run out of mobs... :) :)
    Ha. I'll play around with it.

    I think the bottom line may be to just adjust my brain to the
    idea that then 'new' dots are more damage so I can do the same damage casting less (as suggested above).

    thanks all

  3. shade New Member

    I skipped over the macro response, but completely agree.
    With a box group, not using 3rd party programs, you get into a rhythm of switching between chars to hit your macros. Depending on the situation, I may go to one or the other character for more hands on play.

    For me, I tend to mostly play on the enchanter. CC for adds, the nukes and dots are a little more situational.
    With the SK, once I have aggro I typically hit a dot macro and then switch back if needed for taps or combat abilities to heal myself/stay alive.

    Not to derail the thread but for those that don't use this method:

    For single pulls, I pull with the SK
    For harder pulls I CC with enchanter then snag one of those with the SK

    SK targets the mob and hit my Aggro macro:
    /pause 30, /cast 11 (power)
    /attack on
    /pet attack
    /pause 30, /cast 8 (bond)
    /cast 2 (dire testimony)

    Then tab to the enchanter to tash and slow
    /assist SK
    /pause 30, /cast 9 (tash)
    /mercassist
    /pause 40, /cast 6 (slow)
    /cast 4 (mind tempest dot)

    that all takes a few seconds, then on to the 3rd box
    If bard, position and hit macro for assist and melody
    for wiz, assist and nuke

    Then back to the SK for dot macro, tap if needed
    Then back to the enchanter for nuke or dot/nuke macro, depending on how long the fights are

    What I do next depends on what's happening.
    If it's a tough fight or named, I spend more time on the SK, tapping and using abilities to tank and stay alive.
    If not, I'm on the enchanter mostly.

    I've been leveling a shaman and I'm liking that a lot.
    I've been not using the cleric merc and healing with the shaman. So far not able to tackle anything very challenging but getting to where I can.

    Most of you already know all this with macros but some do not.
    If there is a better way, I'm all ears.

    And I'm sure some will criticize my choices.
    I very much realize none of my characters are playing to nearly their potential but I can do things playing 3 at 50% that I never do could playing 1 character at (my) 100%.
    And once you get used to playing 3 it feels slow playing just one character.

    So I do understand the argument that I would be better off focusing on one character and really playing that one well. But my play time is highly variable and being on the west coast makes it hard to find regular groups on my server. At lower levels I would just charm solo with the enchanter, which I can still do but it's pretty one dimensional and now I prefer to box.
    code-zero and Wulfhere like this.
  4. Jimmy2times Elder

    Its nurf

    I just looked it up in Webster's dictionary.. I mean Webstur.
    Venau and Zaray like this.
  5. Nadisia Augur

    Your calculations are right, on paper, dots are more mana efficient.

    But ... the dots need to run for their full duration.
    Most of the time, well ..., trash mobs are dead way before.

    Also, you're playing with a chanter, you're not counting mana replication/dicho procs.
    For 1 dot, it's one proc, one time.
    For taps/spears, if you're chaining, you'll get way more procs.

    I'm also playing often with a chanter (SK/CLR/ENC/WIZ/MAG/RNG is one of the groups I'm using on a regular basis), I don't raid anymore, so I don't have any OP stuff, and for me, the chain tap routine described by Szilent is what I use most of the time (even all the time).

    DPS is fine, no mana issue, and way more survivability.
    I cast sometimes (rarely) a couple of dots but only if I get GoM procs at the start of the fight.

    Just one little thing to add in my particular case : on ToV trash mobs, most of the time with this group setup, I run my cleric in offensive DPS mode : dots, nukes and stuns with ToT heals, a splash here and there + elixir running, and sometimes even meleing with ward+Vow on.

    As most of the ToV mobs are undeads, the cleric DPS is not bad at all, and with this combined setup of SK chain tapping + cleric nuking/meleing, mobs are melting and I rarely need to cast single target heals directly on the SK.

    In the end, the DPS difference is just huge.

    On slow killing groups, or when soloing/moloing, the dot route is probably very viable.
    But with classic groups (and I don't even talk about massive destruction machines with a bard and a crapton of zerks :p), imho, dots are a mana waste.

    In short, you need to adapt your setup to your killing speed.
  6. Flatchy Court Jester

    I box at least 3 characters at a time. I keep every dott memmed we have and use them. In a boxing setting I have not found lifetaps to be a must have. Dont get me wrong I have one memmed and spear memmed (both our highest at 115) I pull with my sk and toss every dott i got as it comes back to camp along with our challenge spell, then i go to my other toons.

    I have those set up for macros and by the time I go through the macros on them two the mob is dead or near dead. I am using the same spells I was before I just see the groups dps shooting up really nicely sometimes I do not even get to the last of the spells on the other twos macros.

    Granted I kill probably slower than most since im just a grouper. Mana does go down faster but keep your buff on that leeches mana not hp and make good use of thought leech. I do always have Sagacity on and with a necro in group helping out its a lil easier.

    Just for the record im almost full velium gear all armor and trinkets. max AA 380k hp 8k ac
    Wulfhere and Waitwhat like this.
  7. Nylrem Augur

    No Flatchy, (and others) you kill slower than most because you're not playing well. Has nothing to do with being group geared. Alt tabbing, and using macros, with pauses, extra delay, etc, is horrible, horrible, compared to what you're capable of doing.

    Use a boxing program. Multibind hotbars/spells. Use best DPS spells, as quickly as can, without wasting time swapping between screens, extra /pauses in macros, etc.

    Cast them all at once, with zero downtime, on all toons. Zero lull between casts, AA activations, zero lull between swapping screens. Perfect synchronization of burns, clickies, activated AA, etc.

    I can tell you from experience, I did this same thing myself about 7 months ago. Went from boxing 2-3 accounts, using macros, alt tab swapping, etc, to using ISB, and hotbar multibinding everything.

    You will instantly AT LEAST double your group's DPS, by changing to highest DPS spells, multibinded and keybroadcast across all your toons at once.

    ISB costs $15 for 3 months. Or $50 per year.

    It's completely 'legal'... EQ has no problems with keybroadcasting software.

    It has a great wizard, and setup is less than 20 minutes, from time you start, to time you can be using it, in game, keybroadcasting to all your accounts.

    It will completely change the way you play.

    It will make it FUN to box again, and not so much dang work.

    It will allow you to box more characters, easier, for far FAR more DPS. Farm more pp, to buy krono, for alt accounts, if wish. ISB easily pays for itself in subscription prices, if want to farm krono instead of paying for sub.
    code-zero and Wulfhere like this.
  8. ArtremasEQ Augur

    The Dot changes were NOT a nerf in anyway, shape or form.
    SK's went from effectively no dots, to a decent set of dots that are useful in some situations...

    Why 'no dots' before ? because before they were so rubbish they wern't worth a spell slot on the bar, the cast time/cooldown to cast them, or any other measure of 'usefull' in anyway. Their mana cost was irrelevant as they were worthless.

    Now they are at least SK-dots are usefull for DPS in some cases. Especially soloing, and especially with the right discs running.

    Solo, the 3 Main dots are worth about 45kdps normally, and 150kdps under discs (Spire, Decay) Little more with the 4th (snare dot)

    On raids they may not be worth the Mob Debuff Slot depending on your Necro/Shaman force. Overall Raid DPS > Personal DPS.

    What I Do:
    I subscribe to ABC. Always-Be-Casting. As a rule in combat my spell bar is NEVER 'waiting'. It is always either casting, or in global cooldown. (And even then during cooldown, it might be an AA click, a disc, a clicky of some form, either instant or with a cast time(epic etc).

    Tanking, I pretty much chain cast Spear, Dire, Terror, Touch(115), Touch(110) with Dissident, Protest & Touch of Z & Bloodletting as/when needed.
    I use bind key casting for the main set, with several other things on that same bind key (Thwart, Bite, Rending blade, AA Snare).

    Not Tanking/DPS, I'll drop Terror for another Lifetap, or maybe a new Dot or 2 now.


    That may help some folks..

    Regards

    Edit: Just to be clear, the only dots I consider are Blood of Ikatiar, Nefarious Bite, Dire Convulsion.
    I do NOT use the LT dot or similar. I find it pretty worthless for its cost. The dmg is ok, the Mana usage and heal amount cap is garbage vs having a normal Lifetap in its place.
  9. TheTone Elder


    Absolutely this - boxing in Live EQ is just not reasonable without software. If you don't have 1-3 "spam" buttons keybound to each character constantly firing off spells or abilities, you mine as well be molo'ing. Just 1-2 seconds of downtime in between casts will cut your DPS almost in half.

    I was boxing a MAG and WIZ traditionally and could barely out-parse the caster mercs at like 30k dps. Once I got I_S_Boxer and played with keybinds - both boxes are almost always north of 100k dps now. World of difference.
    code-zero likes this.
  10. Angahran Augur

    But this change had nothing to do with paladins!
  11. Flatchy Court Jester



    Thanks for pointing that out, i was purposely picking the lowest dps spells because I thought that would put out the max. Your advice is a lifesavor. Lots of assumptions in your post but ok. Do you ever stop to think others dont play exactly like you nor do they want to?

    My whole point is when you are a boxer you are not going to play that toon to the max. you do what you can. A guy playing a single character is going to toss everything he can. You may be suprised at what I actually do.
  12. Veteran_BetaTester PIZZA!

    Did you EVER buy your laptop omg :)

    :)

    He doesn't need to AFK play. He is old school.
    A master at the game.
  13. Gorehammer Lorekeeper

    Contradicted yourself there, and to your latter point: Yes, the LT DoT took a massive hit in dmg/mana efficiency (as well as proportional healing power). I loved casting our two Bond's (they stacked) before the patch on virtually everything except raid bosses themselves. On raid adds I'll take all the healing I can get. Also, by your initial logic, they could make the mana cost 10x for the new DoTs and you'd think it was perfectly acceptable because of the state of SK DoTs prior. This logic is disastrously flawed when talking about a game with 21 years of class balancing and fixes.

    Again, 5x mana cost wasn't necessary and it needs to come down a good chunk.
    Xanathol likes this.
  14. kizant Augur

    It should be 10x mana cost because like most classes you have too much mana.
    Laronk likes this.
  15. Nadisia Augur

    Some say that Soon™, necros will beg pitifully for a cleric QP because OOM :D
  16. SmoochyOfWolfington Augur

    So which is it? Was this for the better or for the worse? And what about those filthy goody two shoe-ers shiny paladins that go prancing across the lands casting their "holy" light like they are the next best thing to sliced bread? ^^! Were they effected at all as someone mentioned?

    Me be honezt wit u... We trollz arn't smurt. We knuwz we'z lower intelz then mot dem oter racez... We needz our luwer kaztin majicz that use dem lil inteljenze or wizdum. Why youz duez this to us Grater Everquester Godz!? Me'z upzet, me now go bazz head in of da squirrely...

    Edit: I see you can not use less with "zz"... it completely blanks out the attempt... ^^! How about the word "lesbian"...

    Edit: That word works, what gives? One is a less appropriate term?
  17. Qbert Gallifreyan

    Paladins don't have dots, so no, no changes for us with respect to dots.
  18. shiftie Augur

    I’d be more than happy to gain 150k spell dps under burns though if y’all are so distraught and want to give them up. We can take them off your hands no problem.
    Thancra and kizant like this.
  19. Duder Augur

    Try playing beastlord, shaman, or druid, then complain about mana cost for dots. You SHOULD have to manage and think about your resources and how you will use them. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.
    Celephane likes this.
  20. ArtremasEQ Augur


    No Contradiction, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I found the LT dot worthless before, and remains worthless.
    Don't split hairs and try and put words into my mouth either as to cost.

    I also don't like the high mana cost of the Dots, but I was mainly responding to the OP, as I don't consider it a nerf. That said, Mana cost is not the reason I don't use the DPS ones much. Your mileage may vary.