Since you made riposte worthless, let us turn it off.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Dewey, Sep 21, 2019.

  1. yepmetoo Augur

    Stupid thread.

    But as to the nerf, I am going to collect real data, after spending 4 hours compiling data from pre-nerf GMM (just an easy place to start, the scale changes by mob but the relative change should be relevant), I need time to run post-nerf GMM.

    However, in principle, its garbage that they make it so that we do LESS dps to WEAKER mobs because they miss us more.

    On the other hand, they have been trying to kill swarming for 16 years for every class that could in whatever way, and they seemed to have finally found a somewhat smart path for melee. No matter that we hate it.

    But I'll say again what I said in the test patch before this ever went live. We should be getting an increase in dps somewhere to make up for this, it isn't a "small change". Give all melee an AA adding flat dmg amount to riposte hits. Balance as appropriate.

    A flat amount has two advantages:

    1) Its controllable
    2) It effectively scales with content to be more powerful on weaker things, but only significantly for REALLY weak things (+1000 dmg is a lot more meaningful against a mob 50 levels lower than you, but you'll be applying it less), so makes tradeskill farming less annoying closer to it was before.

    Casters happy about this are being absurd. This change didn't help anyone or make anyone better, just made playing tanks less fun and melee more annoying for some things.
    Xeladom, Pano, Veritas and 1 other person like this.
  2. Vumad Augur

    One is a work-around and the other is a feature. Features are always more appealing than work arounds. Between a hotkey and a random item that floats around my inventory to the highest empty slot as I bandolier, I choose the hotkey.

    Actually my view on this has very little to do with /reposite off and more to do with bandolier. I wish I could assign a bandolier item to a bandolier slot or a specific bag slot, so it doesn't float to the highest empty slot when I use it.

    No, its not a big deal. I know this is a bit of a sidebar. But it would be a nice feature.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  3. Zunnoab Augur

    I handle that by completely filling my first bag. Most of the items in that bag are clickies that never move, so only a few slots shuffle around with bandolier use. It's a workaround, but it does work.
  4. NeverPayForLag Augur

    If riposte got nerfed, is hDex still main stat esp. for SKs at all or is it time to go hSta completely (mostly group gaming)? Or is this only complaint on a higher level?

    What would the experts choose?

    How about the other classes and their effect on riposte?
  5. Zunnoab Augur

    From what I understand, the change has the most dramatic effect on lower level mobs. When RoS came out I know of a couple SKs that got to 110 solo in a very short amount of time, and this change probably gets rid of the worth of attempting to kill tons of lower /con mobs at once.

    I am not a SK expert, but I suspect the change was made prior to the level cap increase to avoid that.
  6. kizant Augur

    Do you have any parses or estimates on how much less DPS you'll do? I'll look at our raid logs after tonight and compare to previous weeks. The backstab issue does seem pretty unique, maybe they could address that some other way if it is a significant amount.
  7. kizant Augur

    It might help to be more specific.
  8. Riou Augur


    You can still riposte and parry, plus hDex still boosts your melee dps
    Drpeppa likes this.
  9. Smokezz Augur


    Why are you attacking mobs from the front on raids? What would turning off riposte help in any possible way for what you're talking about? I don't think it really does nerf our DPS that badly on fairly recent content mobs. I've been doing Hunter for someone in EOK. Just me and a semi useless merc killing EoK named. Didn't have any problems killing them pre-patch or post patch.

    Do you have numbers to back up what you're saying? I don't really have exact same mob kills pre/post patch... but:

    Pre-patch: Chardok's Dry Rot, 57s kill. 116 backstabs. Killed 2019/09/17.
    Post-patch: Lab's Sepulcher Curator, 192s kill (a few more HP!). 273 backstabs. Killed 2019/09/19.

    Both killed with just a merc, everything from the front.

    And before you say, SEE, there should have been triple with Sepulcher Curator! No, not really. Burn starts off with Frenzied Backstab. After that the number of backstabs drops off so that first 60s is pretty heavy on the number of backstabs you get in.

    If you're doing a lot older stuff, like perhaps CoTF? Then they're going to miss more often and I suppose it might affect DPS more.
  10. Dewey Augur


    Why attack mobs from the front on raids? We do this when the raid leader tells us to. There are some events where positioning matters. Like when the mob says, "blah blah BEHIND blah blah blah" There ya go DPS loss.

    Why would turning it off help? It would help me not have to switch to non-damaging weapons when pulling. It would make it so that I can keep my current stats on my weapons, keep them on and pull mobs and not get summoned. This would help multiple toons that I play and not just my rogue.

    As for comparing the time it takes to kill mobs. In EOK zones it now takes longer to kill the mobs than before. I have better gear now than before; yet now it takes longer to kill the mobs. The other day I got 3 by accident. Normally with disc I could handle 3. My counterattack didn't even kill them. I died and was disgusted.

    Counter attack discipline Level 53, Cost 0, Upkeep 62, Target self, Duration 12 seconds, Reuse 40 minutes...

    The description is this "Allows you to perfectly time your counter attacks, riposting every incoming blow." This should include missed blows. Now it sucks and will not be used by me again since nimble has a shorter timer and the riposte was totally nerfed to a non-useful feature of that disc.

    On the parses I can definately tell that the mobs take longer to kill. This is in 3 year old content EOK. The really sad part is now I have better weapons and better armor. So even though my stuff is better, my fights last longer.

    Now here's the thing about parses. I can go through and pick and choose ones that support my case. However; that's not a fair representation of the nerf. I have parses from logs that show that there is a % drop in dps and increase time killing mobs. I also have pure disgust when I got that 3rd add and popped counterattack and then died. Making me just not want to do it anymore. It's hard to reparse what I used to do and compare it; because doing what I used to do gets me killed now.

    I will adjust my play style; however, to say that the nerf didn't hit us badly is wrong. The fact that I died to 3 mobs in Chardok after using Counterattack tells me that I don't have to parse any more to know that the damage is done. As for you killing mobs (YAY yes we know you can kill mobs) however; it does change your moloing ability. You yourself say this as you have no data from before. Where as I have data from before; and the change simply sucks.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  11. Jhenna_BB Augur

    Rogues and their 10 minute burns sure are inspiring a lot of sympathy in this thread about their lost riposte dps while mercing it. Just saying!
    Duder likes this.
  12. Smokezz Augur


    That's because there really isn't any DPS loss.

    As for positioning on raids? Rogues don't push mobs around... unless you're dumb enough to use something like Symbol of the Planemaster. There is no reason at all to attack from the front.

    As for picking and choosing mobs? I picked two that couldn't be assassinated. If I chose THOSE mobs in Labs or Chardok, well... it wouldn't be much of a fight. They're dead in 10-15 seconds.
  13. Dewey Augur


    So what your saying is that there is NEVER a time that you can't hit a mob from the back in a raid? LOL I see your gear, I see that you have raid gear. I can't believe that you are saying this.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  14. Tucoh Augur

    If I can't riposte low level mobs like Jet Li knocks down arrows in this clip, I don't know what the point of gaming really is.

  15. Smokezz Augur

    Almost never. Certainly not on purpose. I'd never tell people to hit the mob from the front, especially the Rogues. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    Hell, what you're talking about on raids doesn't even make sense anyway. You're not tanking the mob, you're not going to have tons of misses to riposte on anyway.

    You're making a big deal out of nothing.
    Thancra likes this.
  16. Natal Augur

    What raid requires you to attack from the front? I know there are some where the tank may swing the mob to ensure that the raid avoids a directional AE, but those are for very short periods during the fight and you still have the option of moving to the side yourself if you want to avoid the issues associated from frontal attacks.

    And in any case, ripostes require the mob to swing at you in the first place, so unless you are tanking on these raids, I don't see how it affects you.
  17. Natal Augur

    Another thing to keep in mind is that the riposte changes apply to mobs as well, which means that you are less likely to take riposte damage when tanking something since they can't riposte off your misses any more.
  18. Dewey Augur


    This is actually a negative to dps. If your attacking from the front. Now your miss will trigger a riposte, which in turn does not allow you to riposte, which in turn cost a back stab. It all goes into it.

    Yes there are raids at which there is no good backside and your attacking from the front.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  19. yepmetoo Augur

    One thing not noted, mobs take full riposte damage from players.

    Players do not take full riposte damage from mobs (25-40% was the number they gave us).

    Another thing I think people should remember, is that tanks were immune to riposte for years, due to an unintentional bug. Then in 2010, Elidroth seemed to realize this, and OTHER melee were made immune to even the board. This was intentional.

    Then, 6 years later (2016), they went back on that entirely and reintroduced riposte damage to everyone, but the bone they threw us was mobs not hitting for full damage on riposte.

    Of interest to me, is the mob damage scaled to players. Like, if mob does 30% of their damage (made up number) to players from riposte, and they riposte half as much (made up number), their damage to us is reduced, so how will that affect next expansion mob melee output?

    They will adjust for it, we don't get free survivability except on existing content (until they adjust strikethrough again ex post facto when heroics get high enough and they decide some 120 swarming in TBL is too easy...). So they are going to have to raise max hit, or accuracy, higher than they would have. This will negatively affect casuals with less hp and ac I think. Interesting question.
  20. Dewey Augur

    Anyways, let's get back on the subject of this thread. Since riposte got totally nerfed; let us turn it off if we choose to. Please make an option to /riposte off.

    Thank you

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