Should all raid DPS classes have equal raid DPS?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Cicelee, Apr 21, 2022.

  1. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    The event type you set up does not mean that mobs will be dying before dots can ramp up and it is ignoring that they can start ramping up on mobs before the rest of the raid starts killing them. The only time that would not be the case when you are talking about raid trash with low hp or you are mezzing all the mobs you are not actively killing.
  2. ShadowMan Augur

    The only single target event in ToL and anniversary is Shei. Everything else allows for necros or any dotting class to dot as many mobs as possible depending on how guilds handle events. Almost nothing dies so fast that casting a strong dot on it was a waste of cast time.

    Wizards do need love. They should have been the only ones with greater then normal nuke boosts and its apparent it needed to be even higher than it was. With that being said folks still need to realize the difference between single target dps verses endlessly dotting multiple targets. It isn't an apples to apples comparison. Should AE nukes be stronger, yes. Should changing a nuke spam multibind to include 2-3 AE nukes equal maintaining a 3-5 dot weave on 4-6 targets, not in my opinion.
    menown and kizant like this.
  3. Deux Corpse Connoisseur

    *Hugs wizards*
    Since wizards state their only thing is DPS perhaps DP should give them more utility. I suggest Reverse Mana Sieve where the Wizard can channel their mana and beam it into a Cleric's head when the cleric is low on mana. It would be a great utility addition to their arsenal.
    Vumad and MmmmBop like this.
  4. Fintank Augur

    Equal DPS in a raid is relatively unimportant. I'm much more interested in a more equal "Comfortability" approach. There's no *real* reason DPS Class A should demolish DPS Class B for 50% less effort because they're a different class. If effort is equal and 1 is lower than the other, that should be the class difference. This whole utility identity crisis people have as their argument is really stupid in modern EQ. Most don't understand actual utility in practice vs perceived utility. ADPS is another stupid argument people like to use to justify class power limitations.

    Effort and Group Makeup should be the only things that decide rankings. Having a set Class rankings thought process now is stupid. We've got classes RIGHT NOW that can pour a little effort in and still beat classes giving it everything possible. That's a ridiculous reality that should be adjusted accordingly. Obviously, Class Balance will probably never return to EQ (If it was ever here) but things could certainly be better.

    All class ideas and discussion get largely ignored every time they are posted (Beta forums every year). Broken class features tend to stick around for long periods of time (SCF broken since introduction). Blanket changes force class power to rocket on "undeserving" classes and create larger gaps (ToL Beta). Constant event mechanics punish the same classes over and over while others remain unscathed (Mana drains, rarely anything else). Overhanded class "fixes" that result in nerfs instead that never get discussed or reverted (Arrow Proc line for Rangers).

    I'm sure there's more but these are the main things to me that create sadness. Rankings to me don't matter specifically. However, if design's intent is to have a specific class hierarchy, then the effort involved in getting that ranking should match.
  5. Symbius Augur

    Truly Equal will never happen in any game, but there should be a very tight gap between DPS classes. Each one goes about it differently, but their role on the raid is the same, so the results should be relatively the same.

    Currently casters are absolutely destroying melee. They could double melee DPS and casters still might win out.

    Necro's, Druids, Mages, Beastlords, Shadow Knights all doing 1.8 to 2.3 million on a combined raid parse, while melee struggle to eek out 950k to 1.2m at best. They could damn near double all melee and it would only then be close.

    Basically anything that casts spells, casters and/or hybrids are killing it right now (maybe minus the poor wizards). The gap should not be that big.
  6. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Nah I actually disagree with that because there have been occasions where the anmount of "gap" has beeen f**king silly, add that amount of DPS to a whole raid & you just trivialised the whole damn expansion.

    Anyone disagreeing with that is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

    Some of the issue is how there used to be a bit of variety in "overall" raid design while we used to have more simple "types of event" where you had a long fight or a short burst fight we don;t really get that anymore.
    Pretty much every raid has gotten to the condition of having multiple phases and some of the phases work for some classes & work against others but overall seem to have gotten longer in general.
    And the idea of "burst" is maybe, tenuously used in a few phases here & there, pretty much everything is about using all your abilities across the whole event strategically in such a way as to get the best bang for the buck out of them - but some classes just don't have the tools to do that.
    For some time now "sustain" has been what DPS is all about.

    The rest of the issue is class development stagnation is a very real thing & the devs do know it exists, having enough devs that there is time to work on it has been a definite issue though and I hope the higher-ups are getting that message.
  7. Slasher Augur

    Since every event is basically sustained 1 class is destroying everyone by a huge margin anyone who says otherwise plays that class.

    Right now 1 class basically never runs oom can dps every mob in the raid and is #1 in total damage/dps. Has no survivability issues can self heal and drop aggro on anything whenever they want.
    Skuz and Arkanny like this.
  8. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    Not sure what this has to do with me saying the necromancers will out dps wizards on an event with multiple targets for them to dot.
  9. Qimble Augur

    With the number of mobs assassinate / decap / headshotable during raids I haven't really been seeing all casters doing double all melee on average raid nights. We also have 0 wizards, who I suspect would bring the caster average down even further.

    But regarding the larger point, I agree with you that all DPS classes should be fairly close in terms of damage assuming they put in equal effort. I would like to see caster slightly lower than melee just because melee don't get a Shield of Destiny type ability that allows them to sacrifice tiny amounts of damage for high amounts of survival.
  10. kizant Augur

    Before everyone gets carried away I think it's important to remind everyone what classes count as Raid DPS classes. That would be Zerker, Rogue, and Wizard. Everyone else is either healer, tank, utility, or pet class meant for group content. Now continue on. Thanks!
    Silvena, Zolav, Arkanny and 1 other person like this.
  11. MagicMysteryTour New Member

    Excluding TLP's which are nothing like how it used to be. It was meleequest for like 12 years, we had a few years of pretty even or flopping depending on events, now the casters have another 6 yrs in the sunlight before melee can feel the burn!
  12. Marton Augur

    Someone upthread pointed out that a necro will outparse a wizard.

    I don't find that situation strange (depending on event).

    I do however find it strange that a druid will outparse a wizard pretty much everybody.
    Zolav and Skuz like this.
  13. MmmmBop Wise Troll

    Interesting concept, keep the ideas floating... I'd post this in the class forums and PM a dev... or even bring it up in the beta forums. I like it, except, why limit to clerics? Rangers and BL's run OOM so quickly on burns - I would think a recharge to them might have more impact. ;)
    Deux likes this.
  14. Vumad Augur

    OP asked how it *should* work. My >opinion< on how it *should* work is not a reflection of my understanding of how it actually works. I don't need an explanation of how it works currently.
  15. ShadowMan Augur

    Based on your prior post you do. Mobs don't die before dots are ramped up and get ticks in on any ToL raid. So every ToL event is some if not lots of mobs to endlessly dot up for long durations.
  16. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    Imho, Many classes needs a proper redesign where the technical limitations of the game-engine are taken into account. Bufflock is a serious problem for necros, for example. And the spammy nature of procs is tearing the server performance apart.

    When they have fixed that, THEN they can tune dps after whatever class-hierarchy they have in mind.
    DBG have designed themselves into a corner and have very little "wiggle-room", for dps-tuning right now.
  17. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    That is not what I got from your post and from what I have seen while raiding this is not how it actually works.
  18. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Equal will never happen and shouldn't. I would just like for the devs to instead of cut and paste increases to everything until something just happens to hit a threshold that results in multiplicity issues that result in one or more classes being OP, and then either ignoring the imbalance or over nerfing it, they would look at each class every expansion and ask the question "what does this class need to compete fairly in X, Y, Z, with class A, B, or C" and give us some actual class based abilities that solve the issue in the first place.
  19. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    That's assuming they even have a hierarchy, and I'm pretty convinced that they don't & probably never had one.

    Individual devs might have had some idea of which classes needed help & which ones did not need any help, in the past 10 years though I think that copy-pasta of spells & abilities with linear increases has been the defacto standard with some small changes here & there.

    (Outside of the Beastlord DoT, Druid DoT, Shaman DoT & Necro DoT revamps) EoK was the last expansion I think any real meaningful thought & iteration went into general class development & that was very limited in scope.

    Players have probably put immensely more thought into what a EQ DPS Hierarchy should look like than the devs have, but we as players are all prone to biases.

    Here's my own for 1 example.

    Single-Target DPS (normal roles priority)

    1. Rogue from Rear

    2. Wizard
    2. Rogue not from rear
    2. Berserker

    3. Beastlord
    3. Ranger
    3. Bard
    3. Monk
    3. Necromancer
    3. Magician
    3. Enchanter

    4. Warrior
    4. Paladin
    4. Shadowknight
    4. Druid
    4. Shaman
    4. Cleric

    AoE DPS (normal roles Priority)

    1. Necromancer

    2. Wizard
    2. Berserker
    2. Magician

    3. Monk
    3. Ranger
    3. Beastlord

    4. Warrior
    4. Paladin
    4. Shadowknight
    4. Bard

    5. Druid
    5. Cleric
    5. Shaman

    6. Rogue
  20. Branntick Augur

    I wish EQ had fair parsing like WoW and FFXIV.

    Subtract adps from everyone's parse and attribute it to the caster. Game would be so much easier to balance if we could simulate that with even +/- 10% accuracy.
    Silvena, Yomomma and Jumbur like this.