Shaman dots

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Hogwilld, Feb 21, 2018.

  1. Belexes ForumQuester

    You need to brush up on Milli history.

    I am actually in the druid and shaman camp. They need to adjust the mana cost. I think it is crazy that they only reduced the damage.

    Milli is a special kind of player and demands a certain type of care. I am not defending the patch, I am trying to reign in Milli's crazy talk.

    Go read the thread Sheex is talking about. Never base the state of a class by anything Milli says. Never defend or attack a class or evaluate the game based on Milli's ramblings.
    Niskin and Act of Valor like this.
  2. Millianna Augur

    The only one who is crazy is DBG. They wanted to remove the ability to stack dots of the same type. So just do it. There is no need to pretend you’re trying doing something for the community only to pull rug from your underneath them less than year later.
  3. Ninelder Augur

    Sorry if I misquoted you or Taldiwen, I just cannot for the life of me how anyone can support this after the last two classes the killed off this way.
  4. chocster Lorekeeper

    So a few things
    1. Are we as Shaman (main) supposed to now accept Beastlord DoTs are stronger than ours and completely more mana efficient? And peeps are o.k. with that? It would be the exact same if Pally's got bigger heals and were more mana efficient than a cleric....

    2. The Necro out dps'ed by shaman argument: It happened because the cat got let out of the bag, the only reason they were out dpsing alot of peeps was because they wanted all those raid debuff slots to be slotted to them casting new and OLD dots, not because evey single DoT they casted was so super awsome.

    3. Shaman DoTs were too powerful: perhaps, but not 50% too powerful and not so efficient that they went to such an inverted ratio (i.e. no man reduction cost). Point of this is that they upped our DPS capability to compensate for the lack of it, only to bring it back down to worse than before capabilities.
    This is amplified by the fact that the DoTs now are 3 expansions old DPS numbers and the MOBS in current content have 1.5-2 the hit points or more! So really one could say the current DoT capability is a solid 3 expansion old capability and already in need of a re-tweak.

    4. Shaman never run out of mana: B.S. if that's the case you aint playin to your capacity, plain and simple. All you are doing is casting a few heals, rebuffing deaths, and popping some AA debuffs. The reason you arent running out of mana is because you arent casting the rest of your 8 slots, not because we have some unlimited mana source.
    Mano Man likes this.
  5. chocster Lorekeeper

    Why doesn't DBG go to a 4 class game because it seems like that's their mental brain capacity to keep things even:
    Warrior
    Cleric
    Mage/Wizzy
    Rogue

    *Nerfs do kill classes, how many necros are on these days, how many druids are on these days,
  6. Taldiwen New Member

    No worries. And for clarification, I don't "support" it pe se...I'm just trying to reign in a bit of the nihilistic "omg druids are now useless" talk that is going around. The numbers don't support that. Nerfs suck..this one included. Especially considering they completely broke the debuff lines by keeping the mana cost but all but eliminating the damage components. That's where the energy should be spent IMHO...the rest of it is not the end of the world. Whether or not the nerf was ultimately justified is debatable and I've heard good arguments from both sides. But it happened and it's clearly what the devs want..so time to adapt and overcome. But the debuff line *has* to be a goof...let's get that part fixed as there is no justification for leaving those spells in that state.
  7. Rolaque Ancient

    Right on the money.
    Though I did not consider our EoK version overpowered, since when weaved properly with our magic nukes they did well but never out parsed well-played int casters in various EoK raids.
    On the other hand, the original versions of the RoS DoTs were quite strong, and with the right adps they could do sustained dps which came in at the upper level of other casters. Remember, druids have two stances, and like it or not, we can choose which we will fulfill in either group play or raid events. So the DoT reduction brings us back to being somewhat less than we were in EoK. Disappointment? Yes, of course. But still useable. It's like most things involving mana or money. Both have to be managed and not wasted.
    As for Moonbeam & Sunray, their current mana cost is a gross mistake. It will get corrected, someday, so the mana cost is reflective of the debuffs and minor DoT damage the spells do. And speaking of the debuffs, other posters, please quit quoting the erroneous debuff data that comes from the in-game spell description.
  8. NeverPayForLag Augur

    Nice idea. Set it into a post. What methods do WE have? Or better what methods do YOU have. I have a group geared Shammy, who does well but if somebody stops the group for medding then its the Shammy or the Druid first because of the insane high mana cost for DoTs. On critical mobs which need sustained action this is crucial. The group game meanwhile is mainly about DPS so putting anything on the spell bar which is not DPS is in many cases worthless except special mobs with special abilities make it necessary or the healing ability. Shammy is the healer and dot-damager (infight). What are your tools (group-geared-wise) which help you so much?
  9. Moods New Member

    Been playing a Druid since 1999 and Shaman since 2001

    Base only on Shaman
    Magic base dots - 2 regular
    Posion base dot - 2 regular + 1 fast dot
    Disease base dot - 2 regular + 1 fast + 1 long duration Affliction dot
    Fast dot was introduce at lvl 85+
    Affliction dot was introduce at 90+

    1 year+ ago they decided to stop stacking of dots in the same lines.
    Shaman are force to only use a max of 2 magic base dots, 2 posion dots, 3 disease dots.
    Fast dot no longer works and cannot stack with regular dots.
    Fine,
    at least they boost up the damage of all the dots in return for not able to stack same line and with a huge mana cost for each dot.
    Shaman doing all these new dot will drop their mana to near 50%.

    Since the Dots changes DB already Fine tune 4 times,
    February 15, 2017
    - Druid - Increased all DoT lines in power and efficiency. Removed the ability for the same caster to stack multiple spells within these DoT lines (where it was possible).
    - Shaman - All DoT lines have been increased in damage and efficiency but can no longer stack with earlier spells in their lines.
    - Druid - Increased all DoT lines in power and efficiency. Removed the ability for the same caster to stack multiple spells within these DoT lines (where it was possible).
    - The following lines were consolidated:
    - - Sunscorch (Vengeance of the Wild to Sunflash)
    - - Stinging Swarm (to Horde of Aculeids)
    - - Flame Lick (to Consuming Sunray)
    - - Nature's Blazing Wrath (to Nature's Fiery Wrath)
    - - Gelid Moonbeam (to Argent Moonbeam)
    - - Chill of the Natureward (to Chill of the Copsetender)
    - Shaman - All DoT lines have been increased in damage and efficiency but can no longer stack with earlier spells in their lines.
    - Shaman - Removed the recast time from the Undaleen's Venom line of fast DoTs. This line will now deal the same damage to all targets, but does not stack with the Blood of Saryrn line of DoTs.
    - Shaman - Removed the recast time from the Nargul's Malady line of fast DoTs. This line will now deal the same damage to all targets, but does not stack with the Breath of Ultor line of DoTs.
    - Shaman - Vengeance of Sholoth, Vengeance of Anguish, and Vengeance of Woe have been extended to four ticks rather than two.

    March 15, 2017
    - Druid - Reduced the efficiency of some Damage over Time spells that were combined in last month's update.
    - Druid - Lowered the damage dealt by all spells in the Chill of the Natureward line.
    - Shaman - Converted Falhotep's Malosenia and Livio's Malosenia to cast the highest rank you know of their component spells. You will now be charged the correct cost for the DoT they use. Higher ranks of these spells have lower recast times.
    - Shaman - DoT spells that were consolidated in the last update are now less efficient and will do less damage than before. They will still do substantially more damage than before they were consolidated.
    - Shaman - Corrected a problem that made Sephry's Malady (and earlier spells in the line) do less damage per tick than Breath of Hemocoraxius (and earlier spells in that line).

    May 17, 2017
    - Most lower level Druid and Shaman DoT spells now do as much or slightly more damage as the equivalent spell plus the two spells before it when the spells originally stacked. Mana costs of these spells have increased accordingly.
    - - These changes apply to the shaman Curse, Blood of Saryrn, and Breath of Ultor lines and the druid Sunscorch and Stinging Swarm lines.

    February 21, 2018
    - Druid - Increased the AC granted by Arcronite Skin and Arcronite Blessing and adjusted stacking blockers so that they are no longer overwritten by Assurance.
    - Druid - Increased the mana regeneration rate of Arcronite Skin to match Arcronite Blessing.
    - Druid - Greatly reduced the damage of combined DoTs above level 70. The Flame Lick and Gelid Moonbeam lines have been further reduced in damage to reflect that they were not stackable before stacking groups were created.
    - Shaman - Greatly reduced the damage of combined DoTs above level 70.


    Now with Damage scale all the way down to where it was and probably worst than before the changes took place in 2017, Whats next?
    Dot in EQ have been more or less the same for 18 years till 2017, then some clever folk decided to change the way dots works and slowly implementing them slowly across most of the classes
    Except Necromancer and SK?
    Pre Dot changes, we able to stack whichever dot the way we like, and the mana cost vs spell damage is same with every class that able to do dot.
    It is Balance until the changes are being made more than a year ago.

    From my view point, all your changes recently are all short sighted, no substaining testing nor foresight to what it may impact.
    Why not put your effort in developing a more enjoyable expansion and stop messing the way EQ is since 1999.
    My own opinion,
    RoS – Not enjoyable
    EoK- Good
    TBM – So so, fully Heroic, no like the main visible gear sys.
    TDS – Not bad, except the xp nerf for >100
    eqgamer and chocster like this.
  10. Tubbycat Journeyman

    Prior to this patch, competent Druids were fully capable of parsing in the 700-800k (or more) DPS range in current RoS raids. If you think that was intended, I have some oceanfront property in Wyoming that may be of interest to you.

    Post-patch, I'm still seeing Druids parse 300-400k DPS, which is certainly competitive (near the top, actually) in RoS raids.

    Yes, the DoT mana costs should have been adjusted downwards in approximately the same percentage as the DoT damage was in order preserve the prior efficiency ratio. But to claim that Druid DoTs are now worthless is patently absurd. In most of the top 25-30 guilds, a competent Druid in a competent group should still be able to parse in the top 10 DPS on the majority of EoK / RoS events.

    I would also council to remember which dev is responsible for the DoT changes. Once you know that, this entire ordeal all starts to make a ton of sense.
    S33k3r likes this.
  11. S33k3r Augur

    I went on my first raid with our modified DoTs.

    The following screenshot is a breakdown of my damage on a Lcea raid.

    Each cast of NBW did an average of 1.8 mill (DoT) + 400k (nuke), each cast of Horde did an average of 2.4 mill damage and so on and so on.

    I can't see how anyone can clain that the new druid DoTs are not worth using. I'll have to check out Goro raid and how it works out for groups.
    (just noticed the 3rd column should be damage per cast :/ )

    [IMG]
  12. Ghubuk Augur

    It's the whole mana cost of the dots that is the biggest issue right now for shaman and druids. At least if the mana cost was reasonable, then proper tweaking up or down could be done without everyone up in arms.
  13. Shredd Augur

    4. Shaman never run out of mana: B.S. if that's the case you aint playin to your capacity, plain and simple. All you are doing is casting a few heals, rebuffing deaths, and popping some AA debuffs. The reason you arent running out of mana is because you arent casting the rest of your 8 slots, not because we have some unlimited mana source.
    So to answer Chocster First.
    I do not know how Silent Resurgence raids or what they expect from their raiding shaman. I just know what I expect from my raiding shaman. We debuff every mob either thru Tugur AA or incapacity cast on each of our tanks in our extended window. {In RoV each shaman takes a tank group along with our melee group for fast help in heals, re-buffs, resurrection, Lion , Alliance , Growth etc) As you can imagine we use quite a bit of mana doing this. Yes canni helps some, but on the longer raids like Drus Vault, you need to use other items at your disposal. We can use staunch, but is has such a long timer before you can use it again. Then we have my Favorite, Spiritual Channeling. For 5 minuets every spell you cast is from your HP pool, not your mana pool. This is why I prefer HP vrs mana augments and heroic Stamina.

    Now neverpayforlag asked about what he can go for a boxing shaman on mana revive:
    For non RoS raiding shaman box or not.
    Left eye of Gyrup is a augment dropped of a name in Plane of War (Mana reclaim off each cast)
    Phlogiston Censor is player made with raid drop enhancements, but the player made has same procs.
    Miniature Horn of Unity. . decent mana regen.
    Distillate of Spiriuality ( I make myself the XVIII )
    Tonic of Efficiency Affinity XI
    Shaman also have:
    Tribal Bargain for a spell
    and in AA we have:
    Canni, Spiritual Channeling, Staunch Recovery.
  14. ryokoryu Journeyman

    There has been a point in history that pallys were more efficient and more powerful than shaman healers. I very clearly remember being completely floored that during LDON pallies could main heal certain ranges of LDONs far better than I could just on this fact. It was stupid then and even though Shaman are in a far better place as a healer now it is stupid for one aspect of a beastlords spell DPS to be so great. The fact is that DPM didn't even come into the calculations here. It was just raw damage numbers, efficiency was not a thought at all. the DPM ratio of shaman dots is now lower than wizard nukes were in OOW era and certainly lower now. In EQ one of the main selling points of DoTs was while they took longer they had much greater efficiency. I remember in EoK being in TBM raid gear and barely having the mana to root rot one mob the first zone and requiring canni to be able to do that. I tried many veriations of dots from going all out which resulted in no kill to the most efficient rout and everything in between. The best results I got were 10 minuted per mob and needing to canni. I was only around in EoK for 3 months so did they get better later? BTW my quitting had nothing to do with the state of the class as I was fine with the healing and support, but rather real life finances. Rotting 2-3 at a time is better than I had the ability to do at the start of EoK. What is the average time to kill, if it takes more than 5 minutes to kill the average rot number should be 4-6 as this will still be far less than group kill rates and the exp per kill will not be so great as to even come close to grouping. Depending on speed of kill DPM should be between 7-12 DPM with obviously quick dots being thousands of damage per the 1 mana your GoM proc gives it.
  15. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    for the love of god man, use paragraphs, bullets, something! anyways, soloing as a raid shaman after the nerf....

    EOK (scorched woods), me and doggo handle around 6 mobs before having to med. I have about 190k mana. but am only self and cleric merc buffed. takes around 1:30/kill. use erogo's, jynx, blood, nectar, and rirwech's. but I have pandemic and breath loaded if needed.

    on a group geared shaman, that number is cut about in half. canni once after first round of dots is cast.. and when it refreshes during second mob... gets enough mana up to hit a third. then your option is to either hit channeling or med up. if you hit channeling, then you get another 3ish mobs down while restoring your mana to full through canni, then another 3 before you're forced to med. you can hit up 9 mobs every 20 minutes in this fashion. for a group geared solo toon that's not too bad.

    ROS (OT) killing sarnak.... it's around 2min/kill and I used the full compliment of dots. still killed the mob in 1 round of dots and mobs don't summon though. so, so the the same numbers from SW really should apply. maybe drop it to 2kills / mana bar for a total of 6-7 every 20 min due to the increased # of dots cast.
  16. Arrrowheade New Member

    I think Venedar said it well though. The original correction was very overpowered and was adjusted correctly in EoK. Then the new RoS DOTs had the DPS upgrade for a higher level spell but the calculations appeared to be off. So instead of doing the math and making the corrections to align the new spells with the damage from EoK spells, DB swung the pendulum wildly the other way and sent shaman and Druid DPS back to the dark ages.

    I can see where the Druid DPS was quite inflated. My druid friends enjoyed this greatly and frankly I felt no jealousy...it was fun for them. But it appears to me that this nerf was a direct answer to the excessive DPS for a "non-DPS" class. I get it...but correct that to the level where you had corrected the shaman previously in EoK.

    Every class should be able to manage solid DPS in group settings. If DB wants people to play the game consistently then they need to make group content fun as well. Otherwise, we will log in for raid content only and then play another game by another manufacturer once the raid is done.

    Current raid content will keep most Druids and Shaman quite busy with healing, debuffing mobs and adps for your group. We have some minor opportunity to cast DOT but it is not the game changer that has been put forth with this nerf. So the arguments for class balance are faulty. Run a parser and Shaman DPS is no where in the discussion in raids except for the rare event where your melee group is receiving minimal damage.

    All we can hope is that the developers care enough to read and actually listen to criticism. I am not holding my breath.
    Sokki and chocster like this.
  17. Siddar Augur

    Boy shamans and druids are mad now. Just weight tell we get to general DoT nerfs.
  18. chocster Lorekeeper

    It isn't like every shaman is able to burn every raid.
    There are some events that allow melee to swing and get high DPS, there are some events that allow casters to heavily DPS, and yes..there are some events that allow DoTers to come out ahead.

    1. This crap, that Shaman should NEVER DPS is ridiculous. If they event is able to be fully healed by clerics, then GO FOR IT SHAMAN!
    *Example1: Lcea EoK/Fell Foliage: With expansion of RoS, is not hard on clerics, if they have the healing with enough clerics on, Why not DPS, If all mobs are fully debuffed, cleric are fully able to keep tanks up, I got news for ya, yer heals dont do crap. Your wasting em. DPS away.

    *Example2: End of Empire, very heal and shield clickie sensitive, think Im DPSing?...Nope, full heals, splash, rebuffing, debuffing

    2. GAMPARSE: It depends on how you do they configuration, if its "Combined damage" and we DoTed lots of mobs, we are going to do more over all combined damage than swingers you are assisting, and more than "DPSers" because we hit more mobs not because DoTs are over powered.

    3. If its my monthly fee, and my character, and the raid leader/strat allows it, I will play to the style that is most enjoyable to me. End of Story.

    SHAMAN FTW!
  19. chocster Lorekeeper

    These post on my part are mostly due to the low to non existent necro raiders on these days.
    There is a hole that some Shaman are filling. Rather than buff up necros a bit and draw them back in, they decreased the capacity of others. And in my opinion alittle too much. This is going to trickle to the group game where lots of people box or grp with a shaman. Lets be honest, the mobs go down faster from sword swingers, fast casters, and normal DPS than from Shaman DoTTing

    1. https://eq.magelo.com/ranking?s=18&c=11&f=a0_0_0|a1_0_0
    2. Take out the RAID alt factor in there is less.

    There are not many raiding necros on this server, therefore a gap with missing raid DoT capabilities.

    SHAMAN FTW
  20. Ninelder Augur

    We have 4 to 6 necro raiders on any given night. On the other hand we have 2 shaman and 2-4 druids. There are many more necros playing than all the priest classes combined. We have never had to hold up the raid so that someone could log in a necro bot to buff the raid. Anything that lowers the "fun" aspect of for priest class should be avoided.