Aggro is based on base damage at a 1:1 rate. Crits don't effect it. Spell Casting Subtlety works on DDs and reduces the aggro by 68%. So if someone casts a DD on the mob with a base damage of 15K, they generate 4,800 aggro. Spell Casting Subtlety does not and has never worked on DoTs. Necros don't FD 50 million times a fight just for and giggles. If you are using Turn Undead, the base DoT from that 142K. That means 142K aggro generated per tic. So in one cast tic of Turn Undead you generate more aggro than a Wizard who is spamming a 15K base DD the whole fight. This is also why the aggro seems "off" for the classes that have gotten the DoT revamp. Previously the base damage of most DoTs was in the 1500 to 4K range so they were generating about the same aggro as those casting DDs after factoring in Spell Casting Subtlety. But, with the DoT revamp the base damage of DoTs is much higher (similar to some DDs) which means you love the DPS but also generate massively higher aggro per tic to match it. This was an issue that was brought up way back by quite a few of us when the DoT revamps were first announced. As for using Turn Undead in a group setting, your tanks simply couldn't generate that much aggro on every mob when you are chain pulling and once they lost aggro to you, the best they can do is use taunt to get it back until the next DoT tic in which you will once again jump ahead. For all the classes that have gotten the DoT revamp up to this point if aggro/mana is seen as an issue the only recourse is to use older versions of spell lines so that your aggro (and DPS) returns to what it was before the revamp.
Sounds like this is the problem. I'm not sure how hard it would be to extend SCS to DoTs but it seems like maybe that should be considered.
DoTs don't work well for short fights, since the mob doesn't live long enough for the full duration. Also, once a mob is Dotted, you can't mezz them. DoTs also use a LOT of mana now.
DoTs are mechanically inferior to nukes from the beginning. That's why the DoT revamp is a thing to begin with. They have to be superior by numbers to have a reason to exist. Assume a 10 damage nuke for 10 mana, and a 1 damage per second 10 second DoT for 10 mana. Same cast time, no recast. Efficiency vs Time spent casting is the same. Efficiency vs Mana is the same. Efficiency vs Casts is the same. The nuke is just flatly better. The nuke is spammable, will be more efficient per spell gem, is front loaded, is easier to balance targets with, and basically does every job you'd want to do with damage better. EQ-specific, nukes also accept counter-based aDPS better at the cost of accepting one SPA less well, 124. Both of these are number issues, so technically they can be accounted for at the balance level, but at most should be accounted for once. As part of a group/raid however, the distinction gets larger. If a target will die in 3 seconds, the maximum efficiency of the DoT drops to 30% at the beginning, to 0% at the end. The nuke has a fairly static 100% efficiency outside of last-hitting and overkilling the target, which you don't actually notice at least in EQ, since it reports the overkill damage. There's a weird tendency for some people to reverse this idea in their heads, that DoTs are a superior method of damage dealing because they keep going even if you aren't casting. But since mob's don't "Flinch" and deal less damage if you're hitting them, that doesn't make sense at any level. The usefulness of the spell tracks back to what it can actually do with the resources you invest, time+mana+counters. The efficiency problem versus time left alive is largely why Necromancer's have so often struggled in groups. The revamp still leaves that weakness, and actually makes it more pronounced and punishing to people who screw it up. Since DoTs are no longer cheap, rather than being primarily a time cost, it's an actual resource cost. That also makes aggro more of an issue. By their nature, DoTs are uncontrollable aggro. They keep repeating. By their nature, DoTs need to be cast early in a fight to be effective. If you're generating more aggro with DoTs than nukes to this degree, it can kinda defeat the point. Even with Subtlety fixed, DoT's would still be the harder to control, higher sustained aggro option, due to needing overall superior bases. Also note, due to my main having FD, I kinda care less about the aggro part than most. But I do feel the need to point out this is how it works. All told they don't need large advantages everywhere, but they do need to net out overall superior in a situation that's suited to them.
DoTs have advantages over nukes in a number of respects. Firstly, they can be layered if a mob lives long enough, making them more efficient, especially if you are doing that to multiple mobs. Secondly, DoTs don't break root like nukes do, so if you are CCing a non-summoning mob by rooting it, you can DoT the thing safely.
If you haven't gotten a sustained DPS increase from the DoT changes then you're doing something wrong and need to re-evaluate your spell lineup and/or weave (as it turns out, just loading and casting everything every time doesn't work so well for sustained dps on any class). a 200k sustained dps (15 minutes+) is perfectly achievable by a shaman w/o a chanter in group. even while healing... the 2 combination DoTs + melee with Lion on will accomplish that dps while canni/ spell canni/mod rod will keep your mana from dropping too fast. Reduce it to about 100k sustained if you can't melee and have to provide heals (as per the normal setup). If you're worried about mana costs, you can use garugaru + the 2 fast dots to do reasonable dps in the group game without blowing your wad so to speak.
DoT's do allow root rotting as an alternative to kiting, that's fair to point out. Since root rotting can be done in a somewhat smaller space, that's some sort of edge. Control-wise, since DoTs are harder to control with mezzes and blurs in the picture, I don't think it's an overall win for DoTs if we're just comparing the interaction of the tools with CC. To the other point, layering DoTs on one or multiple mobs is still not an inherent advantage of DoTs. It's a necessary part of the playstyle of a DoT heavy class, and factors into the overall power of the tools, but as with my explanation earlier, if the nuke and DoT in question have equivalent numbers, there's no advantage gained for the DoT by doing that. If you layer 3 DoTs over 2 mobs for a total of 6, that isn't any better than casting 6 nukes across those two mobs. Except you may have the option to cast 4+ nukes on one mob, which if it kills it faster, grants an advantage to the nukes. For that layering playstyle to ever favor a DoTer, the DoTs still have to have numerical superiority. Otherwise, at best it's equal, more likely it favors the nuke.
Except that with multiple mobs in camp, having DoTs run on them (but at a rate where you are not pulling agro) while nuking/fast dotting the MTs target results in more damage overall. So there is still an advantage (although you can't do that any more easily since the current DoTs simply do too much damage. With the current situation, the massive increase in DoT damage output means that nukes are not even vaguely in the same league now. One thing we could do I guess (for agro management) is to use older DoTs in those situations.
good for shamans. Since about pop, shamans have been nothing but buff bots with heal spells. Clerics contributed more to a fight dps wise. yay shamans
Shamans needed a DPS bump for sure, it just seems a little excessive, when they are out dpsing pure DPs classes while healing debuffing etc too.
The parse was from someone trying to prove they are the worst dps ever, and obviously left out alot of data and from a single fight chosen to prove his point. I'd call the data suspect at best.
right, i just make it all up.. show an evening of raids.. or show specific events.. its all wrong. Logs and Gamparse all wrong.. And we obviously have the worst bards ever. clearly why our parses are so bad.. Ill tell them all they are horrible and need to improve immediately or be /guildremove.
Protip : 1) Stop whining for nerfs, 2) Sit SK in front of mob(if he knows what buttons do what it helps), 3) Have shaman and necs unload their dots. 4) Trivial experience gain... that's how fast stuff dies.
The 2 combination dots + Lions Roar on the shaman and his pet is nowhere near 200k dps, and it is not sustainable by the shaman alone.
Fantastic ! I'm assuming this parse is from Shaman #3, else we'd see a Necro or two pop up I don't think there is anything wrong with this level of DPS. There is an opportunity cost for the shaman in doing so (spell gems) , and requires extra effort on there part. It's also taking up debuff slots which could be filled via a better dot class - i.e necro. I also liked the bard's parsing in this one , thought they did a decent job I am curious tho. Do you think that without Shaman Alliance that Sham #3 would have done the same damage? (i.e no need for recourse/ancestral in the spell line up , making room for the extra dots ).
