Server Discussion - Non Truebox rule set.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by dreamweaver, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. Vanrau Augur

    I like how you make assumptions for an entire population of a play style. Did it ever occur to you that there are some people who box who don't use 3rd party tools?

    Boxing via alt tab is not any harder than boxing with another computer. It just simply requires you to hit alt tab and then hit a key for whatever in game macro, which is not hard at all. I know this because I box on live servers via alt tabbing and have tried boxing with another computer.
    Reht and Ghubuk like this.
  2. Morthakia Augur

    This is the most ridiculous, heavily biased assessment I’ve ever read as an attack on non-Truebox servers. On what basis are you determining success versus failure? How can you possibly attribute success/failure without any objective measure NOR underlying data on profitability and playerbase?

    Fippy has made it further than any other TLP. Part of the reason it eventually died is because unlocks were based on beating expansions. Boxing is what enabled the server to beat VoA, RoF, and CoTF before it ultimately stalled in TDS. Without boxing, it would have died 2 years prior to when it did.

    Miragul a likely failure because nobody cares about the game close to live? You’re making this judgement call before it even launches. You would have a lot more credibility if you wrote: “Too early to tell” or “not enough data.”

    I’m sorry but your entire assessment is worthless without objective measurement and actual data.
    Gherig, Oakenblade, code-zero and 2 others like this.
  3. Bobbybick Only Banned Twice

    Hugely disagree and I am someone that likes alt-tab boxing.
    SoandsoForumUser, Reht and Ghubuk like this.
  4. Morthakia Augur

    I find boxing with ALT+TAB a lot easier than with two PCs. I can hit Alt+Tab in less than a second and my hand is already placed EXACTLY where it needs to be to play the other character. When boxing on multiple PCs, you need to fumble around for a few seconds to position yourself properly on the other keyboard. In later EQ expansions when mobs can kill you within seconds, this timing makes a huge difference.
  5. WaitingforMoreEQ WaitingforTBC

    ALT+TAB =/= waterbirding
  6. WaitingforMoreEQ WaitingforTBC

    LOL this guy xD
  7. Chuuk Augur

    Yes please, but only if AoCs are in as well.

    If you guys crack down on botting and start the server in at least SoV, that would just be gold.
  8. Aneuren Tempered Steel

    I'm not sure this can be constructive, but I'll try.

    I can't speak to boxing more than 4, because that was my upper limit on Fippy, but I usually boxed 3. For those of us who box only 2 or 3 characters, alt+tab is very much easier than boxing on three separate computers. To be honest, I have no idea how easy or hard it is for the mass boxers using alt+tab.

    But also please remember that back on Fippy, the EQ windows didn't collapse into 1 icon on the windows bar. So not only could you alt tab, but you could easily jump to whatever screen you needed and you were able to keep them in the same order. I seem to remember them doing away with this, but I've been playing on these damn Truebox servers for so long my memory might be faulty.

    Also, it's not really a fair comparison to compare AoC servers with non-AoC servers. Anyone that played on Fippy or Ragefire versus Phinigel and its clones knows that AoCs are a huge reason for the level of success the later servers enjoy, because (shockingly, I know) when you don't exclude a huge portion of your playerbase from raid content, the recruitment pool is much larger during later expansions.
  9. Vanrau Augur

    I don't want /stick because I don't use cheats. /autofollow works just fine.
    I alt tab and hit a button which takes all of about a second to do.
    I do the same thing with my chanter, alt tab and hit a button.
    My mercs dps without me even doing anything.
    I'm not even sure what kiss assist is.
    You don't need to position dps and healers unless there is some special circumstance.

    What other assumptions are you going to make up? Come on, you can do better than this.
  10. Morthakia Augur

    Killer rebuttal man.

    To the extent a non-Truebox server is in the works, it would be nice to know what the plan is in advance of the expansion go-live. Depending on the starting era/ruleset, I may buy the collector’s edition of ToV on a couple of boxes rather than the standard for access to the bags and other items. Thanks!
  11. WaitingforMoreEQ WaitingforTBC

    I've boxed 2 and 3 before it's much simpler on 2 PCs. Less buttons to press and less time between actions.
    Nobody who boxes more then 3 toons is doing it alt+tab style.

    Anyways i'm gonna LMAO when the Devs give you guys a "real box" server instead of a "truebox" server. It's gonna be great when they allow you to box as many toons from 1 pc as you want but they disable things like [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software]. It's gonna be hilarious when the devs give you guys exactly what you're asking for but not what you want.
    Yinla likes this.
  12. WaitingforMoreEQ WaitingforTBC

    Rebuttal for what the words you vomited. Yeah dude Phinny being a success compared to RF and LJ is totally something a sane person would debate.
  13. Houseofpain New Member

    Dreamweaver if you could get us some clarification on the following it would be helpful for this discussion.

    What do the devs see as the point of the true box code? How is its success being determined?

    For instance on the forms the two most common rationals for true box coding A)cut down on mage type armies locking down everything B) the promotion of grouping.

    As for point A) On phinny the true box only altered the problem. It changed from the ragefire/lock jaw armies to multiple 6 pack groups camping picks/zones.. So instead of 24 mages rolling through a zone, we had 6 camping the giants in rath/ 6 at every pick of the effretti camp in sol/ etc etc. So in practice i would call this helpful in the first few xpacs when all the gear is trade able. But beyond Gates when most things become notrade and instance based it serves no purpose.

    As for point B) The grouping issue is more complicated for sure.But for me this comes down to the laws of unintended consequences.The difference between expectations and reality. The original game designers wanted Everquest to be group and community focused. On the surface this seemed amazing.It lead to many great groups/experiences all the way down to lifelong friendships and even marriages. On the flip side it also trapped the community in a cage match with uncontrollable assh**es who gamed for the sole reason to ruin it for everyone. As an original vallon zek player i can still remember the patch that added a yes/no box to the res spell lines. This was thanks to a guild on our server( the 12 prophets) who were corpse camping people for hours and ressing them into mobs using the low/no exp res. Even turning off your computer it took forever to drop out of game back them. The devs expectation of the resurrection spells use verse the reality was waay off.

    The grouping quandary fits this paradigm. Do i prefer grouping? Hell yes. Do i like meeting new people? Hell yes! But was this balanced out by all the unintended by products? HELL NO!!!! WOW was not a vastly superior game.It was not revolutionary. But it was honest. And that honesty blew the doors off everquest in short order. People in fact did not like the system of fixed role class that forced grouping. They just liked the grouping part. No one liked having a great group break up because one class left. No one liked sitting around waiting for replacements to slog all the way to the group.No one really liked sitting around for hours because no one needed(insert class/role here) at the time.No one really liked playing a game 40 hours a week with a 15-25 hours lfg time verse actual play time. Some classes being essential(warrior cleric enchanter) and others being mostly useless. Even the people who keep playing didn't like these things. Hence the major migration to boxing in some form or another. In my current guild on Phinny i would place the boxing ratio at 75-90% box one or more characters regularly. I would be willing to bet that this is not too far off from the overall game average.

    The overall effect to boxing is an inconvenience at best.Couple this with no real benefit to group creation/incentive i can't see why we are still using it. Instead of 4-5 boxing on one comp i will be 3 boxing with 3mercs on Miragul's. This is a net financial loss to everquest and no compensatory gain to grouping.
  14. Aneuren Tempered Steel

    Agree to disagree, it's going to be subjective. For a warrior/cleric/bard, I never had an easier time than I did alt+tabbing. Much easier to set up, much easier than moving hand positions, and between myself and my friend (monk/shaman/enchanter) I never had any trouble with the hardest content.

    I really don't think most people want it for third party software. But again, I could be wrong, and that's not really something either of us could empirically prove. What I worry about more is that Daybreak will find a way to make a non-truebox server less than appealing, so that the company can go on to claim that it wasn't what people really wanted. Keep an eye out for: low experience rates; gimmicks (very short or very long expansion locks); release window; focus effects and/or even more punishing motm; launch expansion; special rulesets (voting, pvp, FV-style, etc.); no AoCs; and basically anything else that might be considered divisive. I have a ton of faith in our EQ devs but I have almost none in Holly and the decision makers, and I could very easily see them slipping in something like this.

    Honestly, if anything, what I'd really love would be for them to release a non-truebox mirror server concurrent with an expansion launch on Mangler, and let people transfer to it if they want (could make some nice money off the transfers while they were at it I bet). But that's a pipe dream and I know it.
  15. That0neguy Augur

    I would figure you wouldn't want alt tab anymore so you don't mistakenly do it while streaming and show you were using 3rd party apps.
  16. Ecko Elder

    It's not truth, not for everyone.

    I used to box 5, 4 on one PC with winEQ2 and my cleric on a 2nd PC. I'm aware of the other tool from the guys that do winEQ2 and yeah, it does help with driving all from one screen, but it can be replicated somewhat using hotkeynet and macros for truebox, so it's not like people using multiple pc's can be considered 100% 'clean', if you consider using 3rd party tools to automate/drive from one character cheating, which you seem to. So you can't prove that people whom are trueboxing are actually doing everything on each separate PC and not having macros fired from their main box/keyboard etc.

    btw, /stick and kissassist are from macro quest 2, not the tool used to box more than one account on one PC. that as above, can basically do the same as you can do with multiple PC's, just a bit more elegantly. Using macro quest 2 is a different argument from what you guys are trying to put forward and shouldn't be included in this, tbh.

    Also, people want to box, simple as, if we get a server that lets us, which is in addition to the multiple truebox servers people that want to, cough, box 'cleanly' on using multiple PC's (or VM's, although, again, another discussion entirely) what does it matter to you? Let's please keep this thread on track of those that would like to box on a TLP and let's use the myriad of other threads where people state they don't like boxing to those.
  17. Hdizzle Augur

    Noone asked for truebox! Lol this thread is crazy. The biggest issue with Ragefire, which was widely chronicled by everyone on here, was Box armies holding down content and blocking people. All we ever needed were AOCs. All we ever asked for prior to Ragefire were AOCs. The largest reasons guilds (sorry but i'm not counting the rando pug who likes play intermittently, you guys are appreciated but don't move the needle) moved to Phinny was access to raid content and quicker unlocks.

    What happened? did you guys finally realize all your aging TLPS are poop now because you need to box the later expacs? What a shock Lol.

    Yes truebox is stupid and silly and a complete overreaction that only makes playing eq more involved. Not a great tactic to make a niche game more involved to play in the manner the user wishes to play. I'm glad a dev is gauging interest.

    I would caution that if you guys do make Mangler with no Truebox; the server that should have been released in the first danm place.... It will absolutely destroy every TLP. There is NO reason to stay on a truebox server if the user has any desire to play beyond the typical stopping points, a non truebox server with AOCs tho… that will last a user forever and keep the sub $$$$ rolling in.
    Naedyin and Oakenblade like this.
  18. Houseofpain New Member

    I am confused about the arbitrary lines people seem to argue over in regards to boxing. These random distinctions that seem to matter very badly to some but have no real value if one actually thought about them. So currently in game I have a mage pet. This pet can at a basic level functions with out me using the games own programming. He can attack if aggro, he can position himself in perfect range without missing attacks standing there like a . He can chase a fleeing mob down. I have a tank merc that can engage mobs, he can change targets to taunt adds and re position if outta range. A dps merc that will auto re position to backstab. A cleric merc that will move out of melee range to avoid being hit. So these funtions are totally automated and present in the actual game. All is good with this, not considered cheating some how even though its completely automated. But yet if a player wants say his Beastlord to have similar functionality as his pet. Be able to stick to a mob, follow it etc man thats like cheating, break out the pitch forks panties are twistin.

    Its considered logical and reasonable to have healer mercenaries. There needed for the game because of player attrition. Pay X plat every 15mins and here is your automated bot healer courtesy of everquest.
    But paying for a separate account every month and giving it the equivalent automation is considered bad? Isn't the general idea of a business to increase income? Wasting countless hours trying to prevent people paying real money for a feature already mostly present is a good thing?
  19. Ghubuk Augur

    When using that merc or pet (in a non afk mode), everyone has access to those in the game. They don't have access to another program that does the work for them. That's the sticking point. People want a level playing field, not some people using 3rd party cheats to beat the system.
  20. qweasy Augur

    Only argument I'm seeing so far against a non-truebox server is from idiots who don't understand the difference between boxing and botting.
    Gherig likes this.