He has said for years now how he regretted giving out flings/positioning abilities. Seems like he finally got someone to agree to let him nerf his own work. He's also been an adamant hater of COTH so I'm guessing the fade changes may have originated there too! No, you weren't. This was already discussed like 10 pages ago though. People need to stop using this argument like it means anything. "I did it first so I *definitely* should not be nerfed!"
imitate wont always work? what the heck its advertised as a perfect fake dead, on aa how can it be perfect if it fails sometimes
Well, you could argue that since zones nowadays are smaller that Selos got an indirect boost and should be looked at and reined in a bit.
i'm uncertain if this will get read since its 17 pages deep in a whine fest... but here goes: first off, i'd like to thank the devs for what they are trying to do with bringing pulling back to this game, its what made eq different from all the others... this has been a looooong time coming. not all change is desired, but most make the game better even if it makes it less fun for a few... believe me, i still miss being able to fear mobs, charm red cons, chain stun infinite mobs forever, and mez infinite mobs forever... but i digress. there are some rediculous claims and misconceptions in this thread people seem to think "fling and fade are the only pull tools that work and are required for decent pulling.. they aren't"... if you have any doubts come to firiona vie and i'll prove it to you. souliwarr.. sorry buddy... monks were not the first intended pulling class. when i read that, my first thought was "LoL, great troll post" but just in case you meant it monks pulling with feign death is a product of emergence. fd was a way to shed agro when your dps pulled it off the tank. if you're really looking for classes that might have been intended pullers... look for the ones that got lull or mez spells when the game was first released. the ones i know of are chanters and bards. and if you happen to be outdoors, druids and rangers. in truth, i feel even one class with instant agro drop is one class too many... yes, even bards... however, the real trouble with fades comes in the combination with the fling spells. moving mountains, hate's attraction, harmonious arrow, echo of distraction and smoke bomb were the worst things to happen to the pulling scene. i already know how elidroth feels about monk mez, but i hope at some point the rest of you can re-eavulate these others as well. though overall i support these changes and hopefully there's more to come, but i'm a bit disappointed how the current effort affects raids. lure of siren song has been a handy tool for grouping adds to be mezd ever since you took away compliant lurch, and non tanks being able to fade raid mob agro is almost necessary since several have blur and unbroken mechanics now. perhaps we could forgo the fling level cap nerfs if you just remove fades? or remove flings and keep fades, or dont give both a fade and a fling to the same class? anyway.. this is already too long... thanks again for making pulling harder again... just please don't stop here! and oh yeah... mez, stun, runspeed and lull immunity is all good, i rather enjoy being forced to use a variety of tactics.... just not when a mob is immune to all four! R.I.P. easy buttons, hopefully ~b
Some may not have seen this. "*** NPC *** - Reviewed the majority of enemies in Call of the Forsaken and The Buried Sea zones with regards to immunity to runspeed changes, mesmerization, stun, lull, charm, and fear, and removed or relaxed restrictions on most NPCs. - Some enemies have had their immunities to gravitate and fling abilities fixed so that these abilities will no longer attempt to cast rather than the abilities successfully casting and having no effect. This applies primarily to raid encounters and encounters in the Plane of War." https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/test-update-09-17-15.226618/ Sorry if it has been posted already.
Is regular monk feign death being nerfed too? Serious question. Are we defining "hard" pulling as requiring a team of monks (and only monks) now? I sincerely don't understand given the way people are talking. You nerf one and not the other, then "the other" is the only option people will use. Unless they like dying more than necessary. If anyone without old-school feign death gets aggro from a mob more than 5 levels their senior, their only recourse is to die, zone, or wipe their raid. My limited analytical abilities tell me classes without feign death (like bards) will no longer be pullers in any situation where such mobs exist, i.e. in raids. Generally discussing new and creative ways to gut game features that have been around since like 2002 strikes me as surreal. Especially given how the game seems to be taken over by progression servers. Let's just tear the whole thing down and make a new game why not? Oh wait they already did that, hence the popularity of progression servers...
In a nut she'll except one raid the mobs are mostly yellow and red cons...hence gunna be a bit tougher.
Honestly, it feels like they are making these changes around the design of the next expansion. I'm sure they had a hard time designing something that hasn't felt like a previous expansion and thinking of challenging mechanics that haven't been made easy mode (pulling), couldn't have been easy. I have no problems with DBG making the game more of a challenge, and I hope the next expansion reflects that these changes were made for the better of the game.
I know the majority of the discussion has been about pulling, and I have read enough pages and have not seen any mention of this concern- I know it is class specific (magician to be exact) but in the past we had two fades on 5-ish minute recast timers independent of each other. With the patch notes, it looks like they are "combining" them into one fade with a 4 1/2 minute refresh. This fade seems to do essentially the same as Cloak of Shadows for the magician (notwithstanding clearing pet aggro as well). With all due respect, I would like to have my two fades every five minutes back instead of one every 4 1/2 minutes. Unless I am completely reading something wrong and missing something...
I don't get this either, raid pulling (with a "real" puller) hasn't been a thing (unless you wanna go super slow...) for like 14 years now.
I am more interested in if people can drop hate since this seems to be people's major problem with the change. Pullers will still be able to pull in the group game.
The whole nerf is sort of pointless, if they are adding pacify mez and snare back to most mobs all this does is makes it take longer to pull or people will just farm CoF HAs even more where you don't need to split and there are plenty of blues for way better exp than high end TDS group zones. Pulling won't be a challenge or fun after this. It won't show a gap between skilled and unskilled.
So they removed something that was at best a minor annoyance, and instead of doing what the players asked (which was give us clickies with effects that had longer durations and were not overwritten by debuffs; they simply made it so we never use the clickies again. Then they massively nerf the effects of existing abilities, with never before mentioned claims of them not working as intended excuses for reasons along with claims that any of it some how is going to make pulling matter again. That is all laughable. Hate's Attraction and Moving Mountains have at no point had any effect whatsoever on how easy it is to pull. They have simply made it less annoying to do so. Pulling is easy, anyone at all can do it period. All this is going to do is make it far far more annoying to do so. All in all they are trading a minor annoyances that would rarely occur for most people normally, with a huge annoyances that will occur repeatedly for most people. Then there is the whole fact that Pulling stopped being a thing which required any skill long long before any of the Fling abilities were even a thought in someone's head. Even Fade didn't have an impact in the death of Pulling. The cause of the death of Pulling is lazy zone layout and mob AI design. The Fade and Fling abilities had ZERO impact on it. If you think otherwise then you know absolutely nothing about pulling.
Actually, in most cases they won't; most pullers have always used the invis portion of Fade to reposition for a second part of the fade pulling. These changes negatively affect group pullers far more than they do raid pullers. More or less these changes made fade worthless as a pulling tool period. 2 & 3 are more like make up bugs to create an excuse for the changes. Don't even get me started on these stupid &*()&() level cap additions which are just being added so that the Dev's can pretend like there are more AAs in the next expansion when they are just a bunch of AAs which were never needed before because their were no level caps before. All of these AAs ought to be auto granted for all levels.
Tested fade for my bard, yes it's changed, no its not game breaking. The only difference is you cant let the mob get right next to you, the range for the invis fail is probably more along the lines of what it should have been in the first place. You still drop agro no matter how close, the only thing you don't get is the invis, so dropping agro on raid will not be any different unless no tank is even trying to get agro. The sky is not falling
Fade was not added until Planes of Power, and even when it was added it had zero impact on the challenge of pulling in EQ. It made Bards slightly faster pullers because they could drop agro on the fly and then tag the mob that was best positioned, but with the invis portion of Fade being effectively removed from a pulling situation they are not really going to be that much faster because they cannot pick and choose as easily. By the time Monks got our long refresh Imitate Death ability in Omens of War, pulling was on its last legs; but not because of Fade. More or less, Fade is like what? 3-4 (maybe more?) years away from even being a thing on the new Progression servers? Hate's Attraction and Moving Mountains are likely more like 5+ years away. So no it has nothing to do with the TLP servers. Pulling died because the distributions of mobs in zones changed drastically, the zone layouts themselves changed, the mob AIs changed, and the abilities of other classes to handle multiple mobs in came changed drastically to make those styles of pulling unnecessary. Pulling doesn't require skill anymore and it has nothing at all to do with either of the abilities being nerfed. It has to do with CC abilities and player power. Anyone can pull these days and monks and Bards are really the only ones who actively use these abilities regularly in their pulling styles. So in essence, instead of a making pulling a thing again, they are further marginalizing the classes which were the go to pulling classes back in the day, by further slowing down their abilities to pull such as to make it pointless to even bother with actual pulling. I would add say to give SKs at like +5 or 10 levels; but as things are though I figure they will give Bards +20, Necros +10; and monks and SKs +0. I mean look at what they did with the Hasten lines of our Deaths; the Dev's have no real comprehension of how pulling actually works in the game and just hands out the abilities or nerfs them as they feel like as opposed to what would be best for the game.
No one cares what it is on a Raid, because really on a raid you are either bringing several mobs or there are no mobs to clear. The impact is only going to be on grouping; in that it will result in the classes who use these abilities regularly in group pulling being considerably less desirably in place of classes whose CC abilities fall under the traditional in camp variety. I mean, ...., people still complain that monks can take too long pulling with these abilities working as they already have been for in the case of ID over a decade. These changes are only making pulling less skill dependent more just bring everything in one go.
