Runneye BAM!!

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by rachelleg, Jan 22, 2016.

  1. Risiko Augur

    Yes please
  2. Tudadar Augur

    Can put mana pres on something in kedge
  3. Vaclav Augur

    Mane Attraction you mean?
  4. Risiko Augur

    I guess I should go camp one is these. Been putting it off, but doesn't it stop dropping with Kunark?
  5. TarewMarrForever Augur


    There is actually an *incredibly* good reason.

    EQ implements the line of sight check for casting *on the client* because 1) all casting that has a visibility check is done in response to player input, and 2) the client has the ncessary data to do the check correctly from the player camera. It can't work this way for the pets because not all pet attacks are a result of a direct client action, and as such there isn't an opportunity to do the visibility test accurately for the pet on the server.

    If that isn't clear, here is the more detailed explanation.

    The client has the data to do this check (simple ray cast against 3d geo). At the time of casting, the client can do this check and if you cannot see your target TELL YOU immediately, without the server even knowing about the check. Yes, today this is considered bad form to trust the client to do this kind of check. However, there are performance, resource, and scalability reasons why you would want to push his type of check onto the client of a game like EQ so that your server can save it's limited resources for things that the client either can't, or should not do, over concerns of exploits. Especially in 1998 when this code was written.

    Unlike casting, Pet targeting and attacks do NOT always get implemented due to a immediate client action (ie /pet attack), and therefore do not have the luxury of having the option of doing a client-side visibility test. For example, a mob can wander into a pet guard radius, and if so it is *automatically* targeted , and engaged. Such an action is 100% driven by the server. Queuattack is (potentially) another example. If so, there's 2. Either way, all you need is 1 an that changes the ball game.

    My guess is that the engineers decided, for performance, simplicity and manageability, that since much of pets (and later mercs) do is driven by AI decisions on the server, that the server should be definitive with respect to their targeting. Makes sense. Plus, when combined with the fact that the individual zone services do not have all of the necessary data to do first person visibility checks *correctly*, or more to the point *cheaply*, for the location of every single pets current eye location with respect to every possible visible obstruction in the client, then the engineers left them up to the client for those cases where it clearly is vastly more important, *and* there was already a camera being managed, view frustum calculated, culling, and so forth.

    It's a trade-off. Games are full of them. There are good reasons why player *casting* an pet *attacking* are implemented differently.

    Again, do I like it? No, I would rather have it work consistently, as it does in newer games, which were written with larger CPU and memory quotas. But back in '98, this trade-off could have been one of several that in total were an important difference in supporting 75/zone vs. 150/zone. If it was, the engineers made the right choice.

    At this point, I am quite sure that it is too much engineering to change such a fundamental design partitioning of the client/server. The risk of breakage far outweighs the problems that arise from these design decisions. Plus, even if the risk wasn't there, the skeletal dev staff has bigger fish to fry.
  6. Vaclav Augur


    No. RunnyEye revamp to add it was Velious but we already have that version.

    All the alloy drops honestly shouldn't be in til then. But there was no later revamp after this version.
  7. Vaclav Augur

    Tarew: It could easily be done. Make a 0s spell (or AA) that does the /pet attack action and remove the /-function.

    Would break a bunch and not really help much of anything though.
  8. Tudadar Augur

    Nah just mean if they wanted to add more mana pres items in game they could add a new drop mana pres item to a mob or mobs in kedge to make it more populated. Runnyeye is crazy.
    Maybe mistmoore castle also. Its too good for a mid 20s zone and not rare at all. Whatever they do it will be hard to match runnyeye though. Even if they added it to say stone spider in solb people would still fight to solo farm BAMs since pretty common. I think 8-14 on average drop in a 24 hr period in runnyeye.

    Could also add one to dino at oot elite gobs so people stop charming it.

    But most of this drama started when the second instance closed with server crashing and people talking about making hotkeys for it so much on forums.
  9. TarewMarrForever Augur

    Also, IIRC, the "you can't see the target from here" wasn't even in the initial game. I recall it being added to prevent exploits by players that were nuking / dotting mobs they couldn't see while in range.

    They would target the visible mob while out of range, move within spell range but to a safe spot where mob could n't reach, an nuke away. Karanas farmhouses were rampant with abusers. So was Blackburrow. The "you can't see your target from here" was one of two things added to combat this problem. The other was ability of mobs to attack even if out of z-range. As you can imagine, Blackburrow ramps an overhangs were *rampant* with abuse...

    In this case, to fix his exploit, it would have been foolish to reimplement the limited yet thrifty server-side system that existed already when a simple client-vis check could prevent the exploit by the player.

    But again, the pet attacks don't always come due to player actions. So it would not have been appropriate to put the checks on the client forthat case without undo round-tripping and coordination between client/server, which would have introduced load, reduced scalability, and added an undesirably latency into pet attack.

    This stuff ain't easy. Trust me, been doing it a long time now. ;-)

    Could a system have been written that did it the right way? Of course it could have. But it's easy to Monday morning quarterback the very first truly 3D MMO 17 years later. ;-) Of course newer games learned from it's mistakes and did better. But it is what it is, and reworking fundamental design decisions 17+ years in just isn't feasible over what are relatively minor things in comparison.
  10. snailish Augur

    What about looking at a zone like Runnyeye and adding the desirable drops as zone-wide rares?

    I mean this for group-level content, not raid boss stuff.


    Take it further, add similar loot to the underutilized zones in the same level range (it doesn't even have to be creative... "Red Alloy Medallion" from one zone, "Blue Alloy Medallion" from another). Keeping the new items era-correct means progression code and live code could be the same.

    This would be especially helpful in respects to some armor colour variety, and the later-added focus effects that really skew the values of certain drops. (Then again, adding the focus effects to the other comparable drops that already exist could spread out the loot as well).
    Tenaka likes this.
  11. taliefer Augur

    or, people could remember the fact that any focus is really a bonus that was never around in this era to begin with, and that spells are already far more mana efficient in terms of healing and damage than they were originally. by alot.
  12. Vaclav Augur


    *besides CH - which focii don't effect anyhow.
  13. Semah Augur

    I'm surprised I haven't seen a pet named Emeril in RE.
  14. PathToEternity pathtoeternity.pro

    daebraek pls
  15. Grandma Elder

    make the things these botters are all after lore, ive seen the zone petition the botters a GM comes in maybe moves them to zoneline but then eventually they are right back in the same spot. With no consequences to their actions. Not only do they have no reason to stop but other people see that this can be done and nothing happens but maybe they can farm a few Krono. This is the downside to the advloot system.
    Tenaka likes this.
  16. TarewMarrForever Augur

    I have to agree with Grandma here, there are WAY too many chase items that are not lore but should be. BAM? GEBs? Geez!!!

    I mean c'mon, mid-level quested armor pieces (and most ingredients) are LORE, but not GEB and BAM?

    Which represents farming contention and animosity and training and cheating?!?

    You're telling me that Ivy Etched Boots, Crafted Boots, Darkforge Boots, and so forth should all be LORE, but GEB's should *not* be?

    In what world does that make sense?

    Of course, we all know the *real* reason these high value / high KR / high farm items are not LORE...

    They indirectly mint kronos, and anything that represents an impediment to their farmability represents an impediment to revenue. Ugh.
    Tenaka likes this.
  17. Massimo_Bertoxx Augur


    It's never been lore since before there were focus items and long before there were Krono. I don't think the blackend iron version was lore either.

    But I agree, it should be. Items like this is why LORE went into the game to begin with.
  18. Kaivandar New Member

    Yeah, it is pretty ridiculous that these mages get away with this.

    I was conversing with a rogue in there today, in full planes gear and weaponry, trying as he put it "to camp items he wants, himself, and enjoy the content in doing so, instead of buying it and supporting the farmers". He was asking me for help to keep his mobs because even with his planes level weapons, he could not keep his mobs vs the mages whos pets were stealing from him.

    So, in my presence, Battlemaster Ulak spawned on this rogue and he melee'd it down 10 or 15 percent and then, sure enough, a mage pet showed up outta nowhere and KS'd him. I followed this pet back and the mage it belonged to was 4 or 5 rooms away.

    This mage was "reading a book and hitting the hotkey, not AFK", so they were legal and fully authorized to do this.

    This is causing frustration for players who are playing the right way, in my opinion it is as like griefing. Knowingly and purposefully killing stuff that other people are camping, killing every mob your pet can find while you are busy otherwise.. while not even playing the game, is just wrong. This should be addressed.
    Squishewe, Rhiyannon and Tenaka like this.
  19. DuchessElindra Elder

    A friend of mine got suspended because of using 3rd party key repeater on his mage while farming BAM after 3 days afk. So repport DOES work.

    Now if the player is half afk or watiching TV spamming key, its perfectly legit. But I believe most afk farmers are doing it the cheat way, petition away.
  20. TarewMarrForever Augur


    Yes that is perfectly legit. But it doesn't stop holier-than-though trouble makers unfortunately.

    Unfortunately many players and even some guides can't tell the difference and don't follow the long-established protocols to determine the difference (direct tells, in your face hails, etc.), and as a result are creating a LOT of unnecessary work for GM's which results in wasting their very precious little time. Time that should be better spent on the real troublemakers.

    In the past two weeks, I've been petitioned several times, as well as reported by a clueless guide, for what they assumed was AFK combat. Several others have complained to guild officers. It was in fact AK macroing killing 5 mobs sequentially with DoT, fight, they runaway, med so it takes 90 seconds for macro to unfold. I am at keyboard the entire time answering all tells and says *within seconds*. Guild knows this. GMs know this (now). But it doesn't stop the morons from wasting their time.

    Granted, if you just stand back out of viewport and watch and make zero attempt to interact with the toon, I can see how you could (falsely) assume they are AFK. But you want to know for sure? Interact with them! Hail them. Send them a tell. If they turn to you an have a conversation, geez...they may not be AFK!!!

    Instead, I have seen asshats charm / pull / aggro wipe mobs into my range thinking I'll cast on them, as if my macroing skills are that poor. They attempt these elaborate plans to either get me killed or destroy a faction, when all they have to do instead is send a tell or hail me. What a joke.

    I often wonder: are these people really that dense, or are they just jealous that they aren't in a position to farm just shy of 2kr/day mindlessly while watching movies at work? ;-)