Roxxlyy, I think I found a flaw in Daybreak Logic regarding recent suspensions

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by narksar, Jan 10, 2018 at 6:17 AM.

  1. narksar Lorekeeper



    Found at https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...titutes-an-exploit.246284/page-6#post-3615574

    So, any "unintentional mechanic....to gain extra/atypical in-game advantages or benefits is considered to be an exploit."

    Completely valid.

    However, if this is something that has existed for 7+ years, then it is NOT "atypical", it is "typical" and therefor does not fit Daybreak's criteria for an "exploit".

    Not to mention, once a mechanic has existed for years, it then also falls into the the category of "intentional", as, if it was "unintentional" then the developer would have removed it and or "fixed" it. This further negates the logic of the recent suspensions.

    With all that being said, it would seem a warning would be more likely in order, rather than a suspension. I was not affected by the recent suspensions nor do I know anyone who was, but this discordant logic leaves me concerned.
  2. Cicelee Augur

    I chuckled out loud for five seconds.
  3. Thrillho Augur

  4. feeltheburn Augur

    wonder what the current head count on new members is.....
  5. Niskin Augur

    In another interesting discovery, if you subscribe to EQ for more than 10 years you are considered to be in a common-law marriage with them and they get dibs on your stuff when you die. This is binding because I am an official fake internet lawyer.
    jeskola and Corwyhn Lionheart like this.
  6. narksar Lorekeeper

    Over what?
  7. Jumbur Augur

    Just because an unfixed bug has been known(and ignored) for a long time, does not make it "intentional". :rolleyes:

    Weird pathing is not "intentional".
    Chat lag on AB was not "intentional".
    Illusion through doors was not "intentional".
    Zoning and dying at same time, resulting in a client-crash is not "intentional".
    Force-feeding is not "intentional".

    etc....

    A good way to figure out if it is "intentional", is to ask yourself: "Does it make sense?"
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  8. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    Force-feeding not intentional??

    http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010417b.html

    The patch note even explicitly calls it 'force' feeding. Maybe you mean people force feeding and then using stat food, but I can't imagine why force feeding would be necessary other than preventing your good food from being consumed.
    narksar likes this.
  9. narksar Lorekeeper

    I think you have a fair logic, but many things may only make sense to certain people. Illusioning through doors can make sense; if it changes your size and your size cannot fit within the given area due to an impeding object, you will expand beyond that objects' restrictions. Think expanding something within a bottle beyond the size of the bottle. Not to mention, clicky illusions that worked for this were typically high level thereby making it a benefit to only high levels. Some doors don't even have keys, so this allowed those high level players to explore areas solo without bringing a bard or rogue along. Check out Old Sebilis or City of Mist for this. For even older zones (such as Befallen and Najena) this allowed players to go back in and explore them without having to spend potentially hours to get the keys to move through them; which makes sense, they're really old zones, why should people have to spend exorbitant amounts of time in them for something as trivial as a key?

    There are lots of things that don't make sense, yet are not fixed as well. Weird pathing (think original Freeport) can be advantageous or disadvantageous depending on the situation. It may impede your ability to cast spells when the mob moves behind an object because they're running back and forth, thereby resulting in you being unable to kill them and ending up dead. Hell levels weren't intentional, and yet they also weren't fixed for years and were presented as "intentional".
  10. Jumbur Augur

    I meant force-feeding to conserve statfood, yes.

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...skills-for-level-110-cap.243134/#post-3573214


    I doubt anyone thought bypassing lockouts was intentional tbh.
    And even if a bug did not ruin game balance, it still didn't make sense that mobs couldn't "walk" uphill but only warp, for example.
    I doubt they thought of "cover mechanics" when they coded pathing originally.
  11. narksar Lorekeeper

    Frankly, I think the people who took advantage of the recent "exploit" and were suspended, probably should have known better and should not have acted as they did. I did not take advantage of that "exploit" nor have I ever done so. My concern is that the logic presented by Daybreak is discordant and is a slippery slope and could result in a higher level of suspensions and or disciplinary actions for non-malicious (on the part of the players) misunderstandings in the future.

    What if a mob drops an item, via a bug, that its not supposed to drop and then begins to farm that mob for that item due to its high value? Technically, that's an "exploit" as the benefit was "too great" to the player and it was "unintentional". One could even argue its an "exploit" for a level 110 character to kill a God or other raid boss solo because that mob was never intended to be solo-able. Where is the line conceptually drawn by Daybreak?

    Years ago, when epic weapons first came out, I had a friend, who had a low level warrior (under level 40) who got his epic weapon by buying the items and multi-questing. When a GM saw his epic they took it from him with only the explanation "you're too low level to have that". Its possible they considered multi-questing to be an "exploit". I don't know. Or they were just jerks.

    If those of you on this forum merely wish to troll instead of considering these variables, that is rather sad and I won't come to your aid when you are "disciplined" for something you didn't realize was considered an "exploit".
  12. narksar Lorekeeper

    That is very interesting. But, note, they aren't punishing people for that, plus, he said it was "bad game design" not "a bug". Though if they did seek to enforce that, I would still argue they should warn people first. Then fix it. But notice, as well, that that was raised in 2017....force feeding has been usable for 16 years. A bit late on the notice. Also, what other possible value would force feeding have if it wasn't to juggle your state foods? To me, it doesn't make sense that it would have had any other use and or value.
  13. smash Augur

    If a person who this repeatedly dont realize it is an exploit, then that person has a problem.
    It would be the same as you go into a shop, you alone in there, and the clerk is not there, and you then go put some of the items into your pockets, stealing it. Person does that Again next day and day after.

    BOTH Things are stealing, and if grown up, learning not to steal things, people should know it.
  14. Febb Augur

    I can see if you were new to the game and have never done missions before. However even people fairly new to the game figure out that missions give lockouts on completion once you get the rewards for the mission. This is the intention of the design and how it has always been. If you didn't know that, most likely the people who told you how to get around it, do know the intended design.

    What happened was certain guilds took it upon themselves to make bypassing these lockouts, culturally acceptable because it gave their players a leg up on their competition. So they exploited a hole in the system and are now blaming the cops because they were allowed to do it for a long period of time. Like they are the victim here being forced to do something against the rules in game. Someone held a gun to their head and told them to circumvent a flaw in the mission design in order to gain an advantage.
  15. Jumbur Augur


    That is a good question. My guess would be that letting the player click a consumable, is the only way alcohol consumption could work. Thinking of alcohol as a "food" does make sense in the early design phase.
    But that is just a guess.:confused:
  16. narksar Lorekeeper

    Admittedly, I don't completely understand the dynamics involved in this given "exploit", perhaps there are more extreme details to it that would convince me otherwise. It just concerns me when there's not a "due process" involved whereby a possible misunderstanding could result in someone incurring adverse consequences prior to that clarification. It also concerns me that Daybreak didn't just fix this "exploit" with 3 lines of code, but instead, left it in and then punished people for it. Its not like the police not going after you, I think its more like the city creating a road that you weren't supposed to use because it allowed you to bypass a busy intersection, but then, after leaving it like that for years, the city sent the police to cite people who were using the road that wasn't supposed to be there in the first place. Then, after citing you, they put up a sign that explicitly stated that you weren't allowed to do that.
  17. smash Augur

    You say their logic is faulty, how about your logic is faulty as well.

    You know there is a 6 hours lockout on the missions, meaning you supposed to be able toget loot each 6 hours, how should people then without breaking that rule be able to get the loot more than 1 time each 6 hours ? The only way they can is to break the rule, and yes, 6 hours lockout is a rule.



    That being said, there are without doubt a number of people who ARE innocent, because they were not in control of the instance.

    What has this done for me ? Nothing directly, but it will in future, since I will have to be thinking on who I can Group/do missions with in the future.

    Like will I group with people who got 2/3 weeks suspension ? I dont know any, so it will be rumor based on whether a person has got suspension, and believe me, it will be known. I will think twice on grouping.

    I do know some who got 1 week, but those are people I trust, who I believe is innocent, and who I have grouped with when RoS was new, so I will still group with those.

    Its all about trusting, and well if new person I group with, see how the person behaves, and well if a person misbehaves then not be afraid to report in if rule breaking. Directly said, if person exploit in a thing, I can be dragged down if I dont report in.
  18. Thrillho Augur

    It's a door, not a confinement. If you expand on one side of the door, your new size would take the path of least resistance - away from the door, not through it. If you're going to try to logic your way out of it, use logic.



    I'm just pointing out that there is yet another thread for this. Why didn't you post on any of the other already started threads discussing this? Here, I'll link them for you:
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...tomer-service-response-to-suspensions.246278/
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...ions-and-fell-foilage-still-not-fixed.246384/
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...ons-can-be-kicked-you-have-no-control.246325/
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/see-you-in-21-days.246266/
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...estions-for-daybreak-customer-service.246270/
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/suspended-for-fell-foliage-exploit.246258/ [Locked]
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/why-lockouts.246265/
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...-ban-daybreak-codes-mission-wrong-ban.246276/
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/fell-foliage-locked.246301/
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...requested-what-constitutes-an-exploit.246284/ [Locked]
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/real-concern-with-the-suspensions.246261/
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/hortulanus-cryolex-in-overthere.246087/
    Sheex likes this.
  19. narksar Lorekeeper

    See? Those are my concerns. Communication and blame. There are many examples of the variables that we can both bring up, but we're still left confused. Daybreak should be communicating these things if they are true. They have an "announcement system" built into various parts of the game. It wouldn't be beyond their control to have it come up like a patch message both on the download client and the game itself after the servers come back up, telling people that if they do something with the explicit description of what Daybreak considers to be a known "bug", they will be disciplined, then that would be substantially more fair.

    Example:

    "Attention Norrathians:

    It has come to our attention recently that there is a bug that allows players to bypass mission lockout timers on our new missions. If you are caught doing this your account will be subject to disciplinary action. If you accidentally do this, it is expected that you will immediately leave the given mission/instance and not loot anything therewithin. If there is a variation on this that occurs and you benefit, you are expected to immediately petition a GM and notify them what happened. We intend to have this fixed in the next patch".
  20. narksar Lorekeeper

    Well, technically, it is still a sort of confinement, but I get what you mean. With regards to wooden doors, if you are able to squeeze partly between to planks of the wood and then expand yourself, then you would break the door, enabling you to pass. That's what happens when concrete breaks and cracks; water gets between the cracks, freezes, expands, and cracks the concrete.



    Because I don't really care what they said and I wasn't someone who was adversely affected by this exploit and wanted my point to be something that stood on its own.

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