Ros visable drop rate

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by redline, Jan 19, 2018.

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  1. Kelset Lorekeeper

    ah, thanks for the reply. I just assumed it was part of the values because only 17 are listed vs. the 18 fields. Thanks for the clarity, always interesting to see how the game works underneath.
  2. Tucoh Augur

    Developer to developer, how amazing do you feel knowing you're the best in the world at generating and fixing items in what I assume is an incredibly obtuse and archaic engine using a toolset that has probably needed a massive overhaul for a decade? Because this is how I assume your day goes when you're generating content.

  3. Fohpo Augur


    Excellent point, great work Ngreth and the others who dedicate their time. I know players (myself included) take it for granted at times.
  4. mackal Augur

    Does this say it rolls 1, 1-sided die? And 25% of the time it doesn't do this roll? And this single 1-sided die some how determines what may drop? Explaining that might help people understand why it's lower :p although I think it's just basically AD&D rules :p
  5. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    For a base zone no. There is nothing. And we fixed the issue where instances were using the same seed everytime they launched.
    The only thing that can interfere is that NPC's can only have 22 things on them. They can have hundreds of treasure tables, and roll them all, but once it gets 22 items on them... anything else disappears.
    And you obviously are not seeing 22 items on these NPC's The only time we really get close to this number is the treasure chests in raids.
    So the treasure table has a 75% chance to roll on this table. You *will* get one item from this table is the 75% roll is made.


    ITEM_LIST_IDITEM_LIST_DESCRIPTIONITEM_PERCENTITEM_ID
    12052 SKU25_Loot_Visible_Armor_T1 - Wrist 25 151851
    12052 SKU25_Loot_Visible_Armor_T1 - Hands 13 151852
    12052 SKU25_Loot_Visible_Armor_T1 - Feet 13 151853
    12052 SKU25_Loot_Visible_Armor_T1 - Head 13 151854
    12052 SKU25_Loot_Visible_Armor_T1 - Arms 12 151855
    12052 SKU25_Loot_Visible_Armor_T1 - Legs 12 151856
    12052 SKU25_Loot_Visible_Armor_T1 - Chest 12 151857

    So take each and multiply by .75 (75% drop rate) and we get:
    25*.75 = 18.75
    13*.75 = 9.75
    12*.75 = 9.00

    next is a debug dump from the NPC. This dump show the chance of a particular item, **NOT** the chance of getting a drop or rolling a particular table. You still roll that item table and get it 75% of the time.

    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Requesting loot table for '#an_iron_sentinel00'
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Iron Sentinel's Spike (#151153) - probability 70.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Living Iron Torque (#151121) - probability 30.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Aura of Sky Shield (#151147) - probability 10.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Blessed Shield of Iron (#151146) - probability 6.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Impervious Guardian's Buckler (#151145) - probability 4.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Scale Touched Bracer Facet (#151851) - probability 18.750%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Scale Touched Cap Facet (#151854) - probability 9.750%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Scale Touched Shoes Facet (#151853) - probability 9.750%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Scale Touched Gloves Facet (#151852) - probability 9.750%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Scale Touched Tunic Facet (#151857) - probability 9.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Scale Touched Pants Facet (#151856) - probability 9.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Scale Touched Sleeve Facet (#151855) - probability 9.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Golem Mud (#152558) - probability 50.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Minor Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151901) - probability 15.500%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Lesser Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151902) - probability 13.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Median Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151903) - probability 10.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Greater Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151904) - probability 7.500%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Glowing Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151905) - probability 4.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Woodcarved Thunderstorm (#149199) - probability 2.600%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Woodcarved Volcano (#149198) - probability 2.600%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Woodcarved Ocean (#149197) - probability 2.600%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Woodcarved Symbol (#149196) - probability 2.600%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Woodcarved Teardrop (#149203) - probability 2.400%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Woodcarved Butterfly (#149202) - probability 2.400%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Woodcarved Rainstorm (#149201) - probability 2.400%
    [Tue Feb 06 10:21:17 2018] Woodcarved Flower Bulb (#149200) - probability 2.400%

    Also. This stuff (treasure tables) are rolled FIRST. then global loot is rolled next. So the tradeskill stuff, which is dropped on global loot, does not show in this loo and does not interfere with this loot becuase it is AFTER.

    The plain fact is, even if every unique person in this thread complained about it. (which they are not) it is still a VERY small sample size, and with that, the odds can simply be against you.
    Zhaunil_AB and Gialana like this.
  6. redline Journeyman

    The t1 visual drop rate got better, or it could be luck. T2 drop rate is complete crap.
  7. Natal Augur



    You do realize that if an item has a 75% drop rate, the chances of only getting 1 drop in 8 encounters is something like 0.006% right? In other words, highly unlikely.

    I know I am unlucky, but I am not that unlucky. The magelo data for the zone is consistent with an actual drop rate of around 20-25%. Also, I asked someone last night who has been camping the golem in OT for a while now (I guess for spells and such) what sort of drop rate for visibles he was seeing, and he said it was no where near 75%, more like 25%.

    So it is not just me. Ngreth may be right in that the data field shows 75%, but somehow that apparently is not actually happening, which suggests that there is a bug somewhere else, perhaps in the code.
  8. Natal Augur



    When everyone has the odds against them then the individual sample size does not matter. It means something is not working right.

    FYI, the nameds almost always drop those collectibles, so there is absolutely no way they are more rare than the visible armor pieces on those mobs.

    The one time I did get a visible piece drop, there was no non-vis drop. So, maybe the vis roll is only being done if nothing rolls positive initially in the non-vis table? 0.3 X 0.75 = 0.225, or a 22.5% chance of a vis piece on average, and that is pretty close to what people appear to be seeing in game.
  9. Sokki Augur

    As others have pointed out, initially the drop rate was 20%. It was fixed to 75% with the last patch, so we are talking a 2 week sample of this. Ngreth has already double and triple checked this now, keep farming and see if you don't start to see a better drop rate now that this has been patched to live.
    Zhaunil_AB likes this.
  10. Sokki Augur

    I've seen a non-vis and vis off the same named so I don't think that is a problem. If everyone is having such a hard time collecting Vis stuff have you tried running the missions, they usually drop 1 or 2 vis pieces each mission. That's 3-6 Vis items just running the 1 group ones, if you add in the VP mission you're talking 5+ at least.
  11. Tatanka Augur

    As someone explained (and I was not aware of), the drop rate was broken before the January patch, and was then fixed. So, the problem with the Magelo data is that you don't know which drops are before and which are after.

    Ngreth, thanks for the detailed explanation.

    Tat
  12. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    That is not the way it works.
    It rolls every table.
    It is *only* an issue if the NPC actually has 22 items on its corpse. There were not 22 items on its corpse.
    That is NOT a 0. Therefore, there is a chance that you saw nothing and your luck was that bad.

    And, just now, on Tunare

    [IMG]

    Before I killed it, I got the following data from THAT npc:
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:53 2018] Requesting loot table for '#an_iron_sentinel00'
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Iron Sentinel's Spike (#151153) - probability 70.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Living Iron Torque (#151121) - probability 30.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Aura of Sky Shield (#151147) - probability 10.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Blessed Shield of Iron (#151146) - probability 6.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Impervious Guardian's Buckler (#151145) - probability 4.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Scale Touched Bracer Facet (#151851) - probability 18.750%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Scale Touched Cap Facet (#151854) - probability 9.750%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Scale Touched Shoes Facet (#151853) - probability 9.750%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Scale Touched Gloves Facet (#151852) - probability 9.750%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Scale Touched Tunic Facet (#151857) - probability 9.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Scale Touched Pants Facet (#151856) - probability 9.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Scale Touched Sleeve Facet (#151855) - probability 9.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Golem Mud (#152558) - probability 50.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Minor Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151901) - probability 15.500%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Lesser Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151902) - probability 13.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Median Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151903) - probability 10.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Greater Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151904) - probability 7.500%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Glowing Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (#151905) - probability 4.000%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Woodcarved Thunderstorm (#149199) - probability 2.600%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Woodcarved Volcano (#149198) - probability 2.600%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Woodcarved Ocean (#149197) - probability 2.600%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Woodcarved Symbol (#149196) - probability 2.600%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Woodcarved Teardrop (#149203) - probability 2.400%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Woodcarved Butterfly (#149202) - probability 2.400%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Woodcarved Rainstorm (#149201) - probability 2.400%
    [Tue Feb 06 16:14:54 2018] Woodcarved Flower Bulb (#149200) - probability 2.400%

    And this is the actuall stuff on the NPC. so both a non-vis and a Visible

    [Tue Feb 06 16:15:03 2018] Asking zone server to check treasure for #an_iron_sentinel00.
    [Tue Feb 06 16:15:03 2018] Platinum = 0, Gold = 0, Silver = 0, Copper = 0.
    [Tue Feb 06 16:15:03 2018] Item #151153: Iron Sentinel's Spike (1)
    [Tue Feb 06 16:15:03 2018] Item #151856: Scale Touched Pants Facet (1)
    [Tue Feb 06 16:15:03 2018] Item #152558: Golem Mud (1)
    [Tue Feb 06 16:15:03 2018] Item #151902: Lesser Clawed Tablet of the Ring of Scale (1)
    [Tue Feb 06 16:15:03 2018] Item #152448: Conflagrant Ore (1)
    Bobsmith and Zhaunil_AB like this.
  13. Jumbur Augur


    Waay off-topic but it looks like you have the same graphic bug as me:

    The textures near the chasm in OT looks black when viewed from a distance. Most likely botched mipmaps...

    Think I have seen it in other zones a well, but not as obvious as the chasm in OT.

    https://imgur.com/X9zWW0P
    [IMG]
  14. Tatanka Augur

    Ngreth, you are a scholar and a gentleman, and we're lucky to have you on board. Thanks for going the extra mile :)
    Gana likes this.
  15. Goodn Augur

    Congrats on the named kill. But I'm not sure it tells us anything. Your npc data looks great, but it could also be just regurgitating numbers. It wouldn't be the first time that a program spit out something you expected, but the internal workings were actually doing something different.

    Unfortunately, I don't have a ton of named kills in T1 RoS. But assuming that you have not changed the spell numbers since the beginning (ie the spell percentage adds up to 50 percent on your iron sentinel example...so I assume that means you think there should be a 50 percent spell drop rate for T1 named), then we should be seeing close to 50 percent drops on spells on T1 named. And Magelo's numbers, while small, should be at least a decent survey of what's happening there...at least in OT.

    An iron sentinel - 1 of 21 (minor)
    A bluff golem - 1 of 7 (greater)
    A grotesque succulent - 1 of 3 (medium)
    A Kar`Zok lacerator - 0 of 2
    A majestic cockatrice - 0 of 4
    Banshee - 1 of 6 (lesser)
    Bloodstalker - 0 of 8
    Drakis - 1 of 1 (greater)
    Fang - 0 of 4
    Janissary Virzak - 1 of 4 (lesser)
    Myrmidon Tundak - 1 of 6 (minor)
    Needle - 1 of 5 (greater)
    Observer Eyrzekla - 0 of 4
    Rigelon the Watcher - 0 for 1
    Saber - 0 of 3

    For a total (for spell rune drops): 8 of 79

    If I think there should be a 50 percent chance for a spell drop and I get 8 of 79, I'm going to be skeptical of what the code is actually doing. Now if you tell me you have changed the spell drop numbers midway through the expansion release, then the above doesn't mean diddly. But if you haven't touched those numbers...

    Can you just pop a named mob on Test (or Live for that matter)? If so, the simple test is pop and kill...say 100 of them. If you get 50 percent or greater armor drops, then you know the number is most likely working. If you get under 50 percent armor drops over 100, then you know something is off.
  16. Khat_Nip Augur

    That's not how chance works and it's boggling that people don't understand it.
    Genoane and Bobsmith like this.
  17. mackal Augur


    Prathun did something similar a while ago https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...-the-loot-code-rng.239604/page-3#post-3523959
  18. Goodn Augur

    Another thought:

    As I understand it, each section of the loot table rolls separately...there's a roll for named item, a roll for armor drop, a roll for spell rune, etc, etc.

    So your percentages for armor drops are 18.75, 9.75, 9.75, 9.75, 9.0, 9.0, 9.0
    Which if you add them up equals 75 percent.

    You are assuming that the code adds these numbers together, rolls once to determine if drop happens, then uses the number rolled to decide which item drops.

    But what if the code checks against each number separately, only stopping when it gets through the end or an item is rolled.

    Then the chances of going through those percentages, rolling separately each time, without getting anything is 45 percent (81.25 * 90.25 * 90.25 * 90.25 * 91 * 91 * 91...basically 1 - percent positive multiplied together for the chance nothing drops).

    So your armor drop rate isn't 75 percent...it's 55 percent. That number is a little off because you cannot get multiple armor drops on the same mob, but close enough to show a significant difference.

    Spell drop rate wouldn't be 50 percent, it would be 41.25 percent as well.

    You'd need a bunch of kill data to determine what method is closer to reality for EQ, But it could explain what developers see in coding and players see in actuality.
  19. Goodn Augur

    I'm not talking about chance...I'm talking about distribution. And it's boggling that you don't understand the difference.

    100 trial run has a certain outcome...could be 0 out of 100, could be 100 out of 100. For a 75 percent positive chance(!), the distribution of trial runs should heavily skew over 50 percent. For a 25 percent positive chance(!), the distribution of trial runs should heavily skew under 50 percent.

    It's a quick indicator if something you expect your code to do is not producing the proper outcome. If you get an unexpected result, you should investigate further. It's not perfect, but given the disconnect between the developers and actual coders of Everquest (not that they don't talk, more that they just have a different understanding of things), it's a good start. I'd probably do 10,000 run myself, but I don't know how easy it is for the devs to set something like this up. It is clear that you need to do an in game test so you actually are counting live (or test) drops and not just looking at code output.

    ...and yes, I should have said COULD be off instead of KNOW...I apologize a thousand times...
    Corwyhn Lionheart and Tatanka like this.
  20. Goodn Augur

    Prathun's example is...interesting.

    If someone told me there was a trial of 375, pick 4 with replacement...and I saw those numbers, I'd honestly say someone made them up. They are too close to what the expectation is. Randomness is messy and that data is anything but.

    There are clearly differences in what he saw in pairs of items, which is strange and might indicate that behind the scenes, the code is working in mysterious ways which might affect seen drop rates.

    This is also a mob with drop replacement, which is not the same as mobs in RoS (at least normal named). So the code is not identical.

    However, what this does tell us is that the devs have a way of tracking what mobs actually drop in the game. So it should be pretty easy(?) to pick a mob in OT (I'd personally go with An Iron Sentinel) and look at what the drop rates have been for armor since the last patch.

    And then we can put this question to bed.
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